UAL Furlough numbers out
06-24-2008, 02:59 PM
#92
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: May 2006
Position: Jet Pilot
Posts: 797
YGFSM!!!!
Not that I want to get started on a political segue (I do), but GWB has NEVER taken any action that would, at least intentionally, benefit airline pilots, or more generally, organized labor. He certainly would not get involved to interfere with a $130 million private-sector larceny that benefits fat cats (read Republican contributors).
Don't hold your breath.
Not that I want to get started on a political segue (I do), but GWB has NEVER taken any action that would, at least intentionally, benefit airline pilots, or more generally, organized labor. He certainly would not get involved to interfere with a $130 million private-sector larceny that benefits fat cats (read Republican contributors).
Don't hold your breath.
Realistically, should anyone be surprised that any legacy carrier is actually furloughing? C'mon, how many people honestly think that one can get a job in the pax airline industry and not count on getting furloughed?
The debate is like a broken record. The airlines furlough and everyone talks about how bad the industry is and they are never going back into it. The airlines begin to talk about hiring again, and everyone is tripping over themselves trying to get hired, all the while the airlines are reporting record losses. Then the airlines begin to furlough and the cycle starts all over again.
The government isn't responsible for the condition of the airline industry, nor is it responsible to "bail out" anyone either. Unless you have been hiding under a rock, it is no secret that the an airline job is probably one of the most insecure career paths one can choose.
06-24-2008, 03:04 PM
#93
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: May 2006
Position: Jet Pilot
Posts: 797
I think the worst thing the government has done was to intervene via chapter 11 bankruptcy. With that, it allows the weaker carriers to set the prices with an advantage of operating under cost while being protected from it's creditors. Hence, the stronger carriers (who aren't in chapter 11) are brought down to the same ranking as the weaker carriers. In true capitalism, the weaker carriers are allowed to fail, the size of the industry adjusts, and industry as a whole is made stronger.
06-24-2008, 03:21 PM
#94
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Mar 2007
Posts: 638
Not quite. In the true spirit of capitalism, the market dictates how big the industry should be, how much they are willing to pay for tickets, and the stronger carriers survive.
I think the worst thing the government has done was to intervene via chapter 11 bankruptcy. With that, it allows the weaker carriers to set the prices with an advantage of operating under cost while being protected from it's creditors. Hence, the stronger carriers (who aren't in chapter 11) are brought down to the same ranking as the weaker carriers. In true capitalism, the weaker carriers are allowed to fail, the size of the industry adjusts, and industry as a whole is made stronger.
I think the worst thing the government has done was to intervene via chapter 11 bankruptcy. With that, it allows the weaker carriers to set the prices with an advantage of operating under cost while being protected from it's creditors. Hence, the stronger carriers (who aren't in chapter 11) are brought down to the same ranking as the weaker carriers. In true capitalism, the weaker carriers are allowed to fail, the size of the industry adjusts, and industry as a whole is made stronger.
06-24-2008, 03:30 PM
#95
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Feb 2007
Position: 765-A
Posts: 6,844
He's right that SWA will keep winning because they made the rules?
Come on dude. The only thing for certian in this industry is that it will change.
I like SWA, its people, and corporate philosophy, but here is a list of some of the recent and past "for sure" winners:
1. American Airlines
2. United Airlines
3. US Air
4. Eastern Airlines
5. Pan Am
6. TWA
7. Braniff
I will never forget flying with a s/o on the 727 who left a class at American in the early 60's to go to Braniff. I guess back then it was the "for sure" winner. When I flew with him, NWA was his 5th or 6th airline and he was sticking around as a s/o to get the health care. When we asked him what number he would have retired with at American, he said either #1 or #2.
Now I'm not nay-saying SWA or any of the above airlines. Each one of the current ones can rebound to 'win' again-- and I hope and pray that they do. My only point is that anyone who makes predictions about this industry doesn't know it's history.
Come on dude. The only thing for certian in this industry is that it will change.
I like SWA, its people, and corporate philosophy, but here is a list of some of the recent and past "for sure" winners:
1. American Airlines
2. United Airlines
3. US Air
4. Eastern Airlines
5. Pan Am
6. TWA
7. Braniff
I will never forget flying with a s/o on the 727 who left a class at American in the early 60's to go to Braniff. I guess back then it was the "for sure" winner. When I flew with him, NWA was his 5th or 6th airline and he was sticking around as a s/o to get the health care. When we asked him what number he would have retired with at American, he said either #1 or #2.
Now I'm not nay-saying SWA or any of the above airlines. Each one of the current ones can rebound to 'win' again-- and I hope and pray that they do. My only point is that anyone who makes predictions about this industry doesn't know it's history.
06-24-2008, 03:48 PM
#96
No longer cares
Joined APC: Mar 2008
Position: 767er Captain
Posts: 12,109
TS you bring up some more valid points but I disagree with your last statement regarding the "same product." SWA hauls more domestic pax than any other carrier and even more than DAL/NWA combined according to the CEO's joint testimony before Congress. The big differences are in number of airports served and intl travel. Though with their pax numbers their strategy not to need to service every rinky-dink airport serves them well. Pax vote with their wallet and if more pax are flying SWA then they like those apples better than our bowling balls. Even in a recession, their fuel hedges will allow them to drop prices to their famous $39-$99 anywhere one-way deals which will keep their planes full and allow them to at least break even. Legacies will suffer long before SWA. As far as their 100% domestic business model, it is ok for the largest air travel market in the world and will continue to serve them well. Intl expansion that would have them buy another aircraft type will be disastrous for them in the financial markets as I remember the rumor years ago and the stock reacted very negatively. SWA will remain a huge player as long as their CFO does not develop a habit for hookers and blow and empty the companies coffers before anyone notices.
06-24-2008, 03:49 PM
#97
Banned
Joined APC: Jan 2006
Position: A-320
Posts: 6,929
He's right that SWA will keep winning because they made the rules?
Come on dude. The only thing for certian in this industry is that it will change.
I like SWA, its people, and corporate philosophy, but here is a list of some of the recent and past "for sure" winners:
1. American Airlines
2. United Airlines
3. US Air
4. Eastern Airlines
5. Pan Am
6. TWA
7. Braniff
I will never forget flying with a s/o on the 727 who left a class at American in the early 60's to go to Braniff. I guess back then it was the "for sure" winner. When I flew with him, NWA was his 5th or 6th airline and he was sticking around as a s/o to get the health care. When we asked him what number he would have retired with at American, he said either #1 or #2.
Now I'm not nay-saying SWA or any of the above airlines. Each one of the current ones can rebound to 'win' again-- and I hope and pray that they do. My only point is that anyone who makes predictions about this industry doesn't know it's history.
Come on dude. The only thing for certian in this industry is that it will change.
I like SWA, its people, and corporate philosophy, but here is a list of some of the recent and past "for sure" winners:
1. American Airlines
2. United Airlines
3. US Air
4. Eastern Airlines
5. Pan Am
6. TWA
7. Braniff
I will never forget flying with a s/o on the 727 who left a class at American in the early 60's to go to Braniff. I guess back then it was the "for sure" winner. When I flew with him, NWA was his 5th or 6th airline and he was sticking around as a s/o to get the health care. When we asked him what number he would have retired with at American, he said either #1 or #2.
Now I'm not nay-saying SWA or any of the above airlines. Each one of the current ones can rebound to 'win' again-- and I hope and pray that they do. My only point is that anyone who makes predictions about this industry doesn't know it's history.
06-24-2008, 03:58 PM
#98
No longer cares
Joined APC: Mar 2008
Position: 767er Captain
Posts: 12,109
well, joe six pack is also a field sales rep for a fortune 500 company... he makes 200k a year and flies to cover his territory at least 3 days a week.
He's sick of disney...he prefers Denver for skiiing in the winter and summers in new England....
SWA will expand as the legacies reduce.... they'll keep winning this game because they have made the rules....
He's sick of disney...he prefers Denver for skiiing in the winter and summers in new England....
SWA will expand as the legacies reduce.... they'll keep winning this game because they have made the rules....
$200k sales reps also don't like riding on the cattle car. Ever talk to any of 'em? And if they can get frequent flyer miles and a nice lounge to boot when they are flying to Denver or New England, they would like that too. Frequent flyer miles on the new DAL can take them anywhere in the world. Assuming, of course those $200k/year sales reps are still working during/after this recession. And before you get all uppity about how great SWA is and all.. I'm just sayin that they are a different animal. A well run one, I concede.. but not infallable either. They have their place, and it is predominantly domestic. FWIW, the dynamic of who DAL is carrying has mostly changed. Instead of taking Americans to Europe to vacation, we are bringing Europeans here because of the same weak dollar that is killing this country right now. THAT has been good for the legacies. I stand by my assertin that SWA better pray this recession is short lived.. and that is dies before their fuel hedges do.
06-24-2008, 04:24 PM
#99
Line Holder
Joined APC: Dec 2007
Position: Retired
Posts: 66
What calibre pistol did they hold to "y'all's" heads that made you get into this here flyin' "bidness"? I don't recall any contract containing anything about indentured servitude and the taking of wives and children as hostages. There were a lot of people who lost money investing in BETA when VHS was the way to go. When you're in the "bigs" and you stand in the box, the ball might fly at your head at near 100 mph and THEN break- the umpire might call it a strike even though you KNOW it was high! Life is not fair, so don't complain that life is not fair! I'm out of analogies for now. Shut up and march...
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