7576FO

While having cocktails with a good friend of mine last night. He mentioned that if his airline parked some 737's he'd get bumped back to co-pilot. He went on to complain and complain and then he said "i'll be invisible again"
Well that isn't the first time i've heard that remark.
And it brings out all of my defensiveness.
To me this just shows his ego and he has no respect for the team effort.
When he was a 767 co-pilot he bragged about how good he was.
Also on our Union board there was a big discussion thread on how Captain upgrade is so hard. And they don't just give Captain type ratings to anyone.
At my airline American, there is a required up or out upgrade policy. If you do not pass upgrade you are fired. It used to be a one-year trigger from when someone junior to you upgrades. And our Union wants it deleted from the next contract.

Now I was a captain at a regional for a very long time. I always treated it as a team effort. I didn't go around talking about who was a good co-pilot and who was bad.

I can understand getting bumped from the left seat losing pay and status. But to say that you are going back to invisible insults me.

What say you?
7576

LifeNtheFstLne

I wondered if that 'up or out' policy still existed at AA. Perhaps my opinion is not popular, but I think it's pathetic how many career right seaters we have at CAL (many of them scabs). It shows a lack of ambition and poor leadership skills. (Disclaimer for CAL - our junior CA work rules are so horrible I suppose it's a viable excuse). Why does your union want the policy changed? I think it's a great way to have rather predictable movement on the seniority list and hold people to a higher standard. Like Human Resources always says: 'they're hiring Captains.'

Oh, and I'm definitely not good - just lucky.

saab2000

It's not insulting, but it is immature. Anyone who does this job because they like to be in the spotlight is for sure in it for the wrong reasons. And yeah, it is a team effort. I always brief the crew that I am there to work for them, not the other way around. I simply have the seniority to sit in the left seat, but other than that am no better than they are. But if in my position as captain I can do anything to help them do their jobs better that they shouldn't hesitate to ask.

It's about getting the job done, not massaging my ego.

The one like you describe fortunately are not the majority of crew members. Most of the F/Os and F/As I fly with are polite and professional and want to do the right thing. Occasionally there are immature egomaniacs, but they are in the minority. Or at least their egos are not abnormally large, given an industry of large egos.....

III Corps

The really good Captains make VERY good F/Os. Those just wearing the stripes and leading the band do not make very good F/Os.

Most of my career was in the left seat but due to a medical, when I returned to the line, I did about six months in the right seat. It was most informative and instructive. it reminded me of the workload in the right seat which can at times be VERY high and without someone in the left seat who appreciates the pace, the right-seater can easily be overloaded.

Going back to the right seat, I tried to remember all the EXCELLENT F/Os I had worked with and tried to emulate them.

Your friend sounds like he is going to be a flying speed brake in the cockpit.

7576FO

On the up or out at American captain upgrade, since 2001 it can be deferred up to like 3 years now, but you must write a statement to your chief or something. I see it in the computer when looking at the bid results who has deferred.

I think our union wants it changed due to the massive amount of commuters we have. That it's a different landscape now. Since 2001, many if not all of us have decided whats more important "your family life or your seat"
This is just my guess.
But more likely it's to match the other majors that do not have a up or out policy.
Me, i'll upgrade at first chance available. But that's just me.

I like the policy and because it's fair, this way everyone gets a shot at "The On Reserve Experience" Whooppee!

SkyHigh

I can see your friends position. As an FO you are invisible. No one cares about your opinions. Maintenance control or dispatch does not care what you think. Management does not want your input. The chief pilot does not know your name. You have no real responsibilities. The company has to dream up busy work to keep The FO awake and interested. You are merely a redundant system that is there to gain experience through observation. Even FA's and baggage handlers have more input and control over their environment.

As an FO passengers will stare at you in full uniform and three bars and ask "are you the pilot"? Meaning that the FO is not the pilot. And in reality the FO isn't. Most of the time the FO gets the same information about the flight as the passengers. The FO is one pilot to many in a job that requires a half alert person to begin with. They have superfluous and respect less job that really is "invisible". There isn't much satisfaction in the right seat.

SkyHigh

saab2000

I work at a 'regional' carrier and took the first upgrade I could get. Still struggling with schedules and being back at the bottom of the barrel, but I have not regretted taking the upgrade for one second. It's been a great learning experience and lots of fun and sort of renewed some enthusiasm for the job. After six years in the right seat (lost my first job at 3 years) it was just what I needed.

There are some folks who make it to a major with little or no captain time on an RJ. It is what it is, but I am glad to have finally made it.

BTW, at my company there are about 15 or so semi-permanent F/Os. The company has no policy on them but they like their bidding power and QOL and are financially secure enough to sit right seat. Different situation than at a major I guess.

LifeNtheFstLne

You certainly bring up an important topic; Q.O.L. I suppose now that so many of the pay and work rules have gone in the toilet the appeal of upgrading ASAP to buy that 'Cadillac a month' has vanished. I wonder what is more cost effective for the company? I would imagine that's the direction that will be taken...(and by that I mean rammed down your throats). People frequently mention our 3-year or 5-year CA's at CAL. It's not JUST because of all those retirements. Anyone who has ever sat reserve here will tell you that is the contributing factor for so many commuters not wanting/be able to upgrade ASAP.

saab2000

I did not get into this job to show my uniform stripes off to the passengers. Or to become visible to anyone. Yes, it can be frustrating to be 'better' than the guy in the left seat, but that can be a position that it's dangerous to have anyway. When I moved to the left seat I got a whole new appreciation for the so-called 'weak links' I used to fly with and got to see things from their perspective.

Do I want to move back to the right seat? No. But if I get a new job it's where I'll likely end up. I enjoyed my right seat time and learned a lot. But my satisfaction in the left seat has nothing to do with how the public perceives me or my position.

SaltyDog

Me too. <g> At our company,we have some single Dads with custody who choose to stay in the right seat to have the seniority to pull it off. I laud them for that, we also have some who just enjoy having a summer vacation with the kids, etc. Tough for me as a junior CPT to have a week of summer vacation when the kids are actually off. I will choose to go to the right seat rather than leave my domicile to stay left seat which is a very real possibility since I took first available upgrade and things going backwards for a bit. The pay cut is OK with me for quality of life. I don't have an ego issue though being an F/O etc. I see it as a team, and if I need to be the cook. Fine by me. How do you want your coffee? <g>

Bad Capt then. I had immense satisfaction in the right seat. As said CPT by seniority only, F/O's and S/O's have frequently saved my bacon, glad they felt important enough to speak up!