Getting bumped back from Captain
05-06-2008, 01:52 PM
#81
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jul 2007
Position: 744 CA
Posts: 4,772
Wow what a thread. Where to start...
Sky... as someone said above... its not your chosen profession anymore..... and I think perhaps Toms observation is spot on..... your distaste for the right seat jaded you to some degree
De727.... free speech, now thats a laugh, I personally have been "warned" for using an unacceptable word when it referred to no one, but did refer to my feelings about something....... free .....what a crock.
as to being an FO.....nearly all flight time is in crew environment aircraft and 3/4's of that is in the right seat, with about 800 hours PIC time in the left I like both jobs. Both have unique and challenging aspects to them. As we all have I have flown with the PIA CA who runs his crew like a chain gang and I have flown with the CA who was comfortable enough to let the FO run the show on their legs, and receive valuable input from them when the CA is flying. I did recently fly with a CA who I will make every attempt to never fly with again mainly because it was obvious he distrusts those he flies with. He had it in his mind how the aircraft should be flown and with NO deviation from that. Half a dot high on the glide slope at 1300' feet on a visual approach he exclaims that I should dive the aircraft to get back on glide slope...... thats just one of many.... End the end though I enjoy the job in the right seat. Nearly every CA I have flown with asks for input and shows respect as I do always for them. In a previous life when I was the aircraft commander I always took input from my crew and it could be big anywhere from 5-8 with multiple loadmasters and navigators etc. It was always a CREW effort.
At my current company we do have some "long term" FO's ..there are several who would easily be top 50 percent CA's on our biggest equipment..... so draw your own conclusions.
Sky... as someone said above... its not your chosen profession anymore..... and I think perhaps Toms observation is spot on..... your distaste for the right seat jaded you to some degree
De727.... free speech, now thats a laugh, I personally have been "warned" for using an unacceptable word when it referred to no one, but did refer to my feelings about something....... free .....what a crock.
as to being an FO.....nearly all flight time is in crew environment aircraft and 3/4's of that is in the right seat, with about 800 hours PIC time in the left I like both jobs. Both have unique and challenging aspects to them. As we all have I have flown with the PIA CA who runs his crew like a chain gang and I have flown with the CA who was comfortable enough to let the FO run the show on their legs, and receive valuable input from them when the CA is flying. I did recently fly with a CA who I will make every attempt to never fly with again mainly because it was obvious he distrusts those he flies with. He had it in his mind how the aircraft should be flown and with NO deviation from that. Half a dot high on the glide slope at 1300' feet on a visual approach he exclaims that I should dive the aircraft to get back on glide slope...... thats just one of many.... End the end though I enjoy the job in the right seat. Nearly every CA I have flown with asks for input and shows respect as I do always for them. In a previous life when I was the aircraft commander I always took input from my crew and it could be big anywhere from 5-8 with multiple loadmasters and navigators etc. It was always a CREW effort.
At my current company we do have some "long term" FO's ..there are several who would easily be top 50 percent CA's on our biggest equipment..... so draw your own conclusions.
05-06-2008, 04:13 PM
#82
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Dec 2006
Position: I was acquired, Not Hired
Posts: 1,784
B757200er and the rest of you captains on your "high horses"
Be sure and tell your FO's during your pre-departure briefing that their postion and time for this flight is completely worthless. And to not even put this time in any logbook. As an FO Ive offered many a good advice to you "know it all" captains, especially new guys on type. The worst is the "know it all types" that can do no wrong.
Respect your FO's you prima donna's. With fuel approaching 200 a barell(and it will get there). There is no telling where you'll all be. That FO may be in charge of hiring your arrogant @sses.
Be sure and tell your FO's during your pre-departure briefing that their postion and time for this flight is completely worthless. And to not even put this time in any logbook. As an FO Ive offered many a good advice to you "know it all" captains, especially new guys on type. The worst is the "know it all types" that can do no wrong.
Respect your FO's you prima donna's. With fuel approaching 200 a barell(and it will get there). There is no telling where you'll all be. That FO may be in charge of hiring your arrogant @sses.
I'd have to say you took B757200ER's comments out of the context they were written in.
He merely alluded to the fact then when looking for work, SIC time is given little or no credit to the applicant...simple as that.
After being furloughed from American/TWA, I had almost 11,000 TT, 6000 Jet, and almost 10,000 turbine SIC time but ZERO turbine PIC. I went to a AIR Inc and when handing my resume to an Air Tran rep, he told me I did meet their qualifications because I did not have the required 500 Turbine PIC time. He then went on to tell me to go get a Beech 1900 job, and upgrade as soon as possible then send Air Tran a resume when "I'm qualified".
There are many candidates that apply to UPS and do not meet their min. quals because they don't have the 1000 hrs of turbine PIC time. However, these same candidates have over 10,000 hrs and a heck of a lot more experience than some of the 2000 to 4000 hour wonders that were hired 10-15 years ago that are now Captains at UPS. Unfortunately, some of these 2000 hr wonders are the loudest complainers at UPS because they have no idea what it's like to work elsewhere....
"This is the worst flight I've had in 18 years"
"This is the worst company I've worked for because they don't carry my bags up and down the crew stairs."
"I hate it here, because crew scheduling lied to me."
"Our Travel Dept. sucks, because I requested an aisle seat in first class and got a window seat".
So, when B757200ER said that SIC is useless when it comes to hiring, he wasn't on a high horse by any means, just stating that tens of thousands of hours of SIC should count for something when compared to 1000 of turbine PIC (UPS) or 500 turbine PIC (Air Tran).
I actually like working at UPS and am extremely humbled considering the other candidates that also applied to UPS.
FF
05-06-2008, 07:27 PM
#84
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Mar 2008
Position: FAA 'Flight Check'
Posts: 13,839
FliFast -
"I had almost 11,000 TT, 6000 Jet, and almost 10,000 turbine SIC time "
VERY IMPRESSIVE! I hope someday to have times like this.
"and a heck of a lot more experience than some of the 2000 to 4000 hour wonders"
I've got a few years of civilian flying experience and then nearly 20 years of military experience. I'll be on the high side of your range here when I get out with nearly ALL of it being trubine PIC. I don't consider myself a "wonder" and I would hope that you wouldn't consider me one either.
USMCFLYR
"I had almost 11,000 TT, 6000 Jet, and almost 10,000 turbine SIC time "
VERY IMPRESSIVE! I hope someday to have times like this.
"and a heck of a lot more experience than some of the 2000 to 4000 hour wonders"
I've got a few years of civilian flying experience and then nearly 20 years of military experience. I'll be on the high side of your range here when I get out with nearly ALL of it being trubine PIC. I don't consider myself a "wonder" and I would hope that you wouldn't consider me one either.
USMCFLYR
05-07-2008, 08:38 AM
#85
Day puke
Joined APC: Feb 2006
Position: Out.
Posts: 3,865
I am an FO.
I am not invisible. In public, I try to present the image of the well groomed, calm, cool, confident, and charismatic pilot (after all, I represent my company, the mainline we contract with, and all my brethren). As often as not, when I am seen with my captain, passengers approach me with their questions. Maybe standing head down and acting invisible actually Caused you to BE INVISIBLE.
I am not redundant; nor am I a "tradition". I augment my captain by insuring he/she keeps the flight safe, legal, and prudent. After the dispatcher and the captain, I am the third person to review the release. While rare, errors can slip through, and I am the last line of defense. In flight, he seeks my input for weather avoidance, abnormality resolution, and efficiency.
I am not an autopilot. In nine years flying single pilot, I never once had the autopilot correct my mistaken read-back, insure my alternate was legal, confirm my fuel load was correct, complete my manifest, or support my decision when I had to talk to the feds.
Each time I fly with a captain for the first time, he gives me a cautious or jaundiced look. He has no idea what kind of an FO he is getting. I understand and don't take it personally. I just come in, do my job, and within a few legs he knows he has someone who can cut the mustard. He gives me as much responsibility and authority as is legal. After hearing my opinion, he may not always agree with me. That is his prerogative: he did sign for the aircraft. And until a captain does something Wrong or Unsafe, I will pop tall, salute, and carry on. But when I am faced with that one bad apple who does something really stupid, I will take it up the chain: I believe I have earned enough of a reputation, that my complaint will be heard.
I am not invisible. In public, I try to present the image of the well groomed, calm, cool, confident, and charismatic pilot (after all, I represent my company, the mainline we contract with, and all my brethren). As often as not, when I am seen with my captain, passengers approach me with their questions. Maybe standing head down and acting invisible actually Caused you to BE INVISIBLE.
I am not redundant; nor am I a "tradition". I augment my captain by insuring he/she keeps the flight safe, legal, and prudent. After the dispatcher and the captain, I am the third person to review the release. While rare, errors can slip through, and I am the last line of defense. In flight, he seeks my input for weather avoidance, abnormality resolution, and efficiency.
I am not an autopilot. In nine years flying single pilot, I never once had the autopilot correct my mistaken read-back, insure my alternate was legal, confirm my fuel load was correct, complete my manifest, or support my decision when I had to talk to the feds.
Each time I fly with a captain for the first time, he gives me a cautious or jaundiced look. He has no idea what kind of an FO he is getting. I understand and don't take it personally. I just come in, do my job, and within a few legs he knows he has someone who can cut the mustard. He gives me as much responsibility and authority as is legal. After hearing my opinion, he may not always agree with me. That is his prerogative: he did sign for the aircraft. And until a captain does something Wrong or Unsafe, I will pop tall, salute, and carry on. But when I am faced with that one bad apple who does something really stupid, I will take it up the chain: I believe I have earned enough of a reputation, that my complaint will be heard.
05-07-2008, 09:49 AM
#86
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jun 2005
Position: Retired
Posts: 2,934
JSH, GREAT POST.
I'm sure Sky will be on realestateforums.com or some other site crying about how the housing market has wronged him. I had him on ignore for quite a while but quite frankly his manic-depressive rants are comic relief.
I'm sure Sky will be on realestateforums.com or some other site crying about how the housing market has wronged him. I had him on ignore for quite a while but quite frankly his manic-depressive rants are comic relief.
05-07-2008, 04:12 PM
#87
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Dec 2006
Position: I was acquired, Not Hired
Posts: 1,784
05-07-2008, 04:19 PM
#88
AAmerican Way for AA Pay
Joined APC: Oct 2005
Position: B-737 Pilot
Posts: 1,617
B757200er and the rest of you captains on your "high horses"
Be sure and tell your FO's during your pre-departure briefing that their postion and time for this flight is completely worthless. And to not even put this time in any logbook.
Respect your FO's you prima donna's. With fuel approaching 200 a barell(and it will get there). There is no telling where you'll all be. That FO may be in charge of hiring your arrogant @sses.
Be sure and tell your FO's during your pre-departure briefing that their postion and time for this flight is completely worthless. And to not even put this time in any logbook.
Respect your FO's you prima donna's. With fuel approaching 200 a barell(and it will get there). There is no telling where you'll all be. That FO may be in charge of hiring your arrogant @sses.
What does that have to do with being on a 'high horse'? As far as getting furloughed----done that 5 times. How many for you? I know this for sure, regarding fuel, terrorism, hiring, salries, etc---NOONE has a crystal ball in this business. Noone.
And where is my post does it say I disrespect my F/Os?
You're flame-baitin' me, aren't ya?
05-07-2008, 04:29 PM
#89
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Dec 2006
Position: I was acquired, Not Hired
Posts: 1,784
FliFast -
"I had almost 11,000 TT, 6000 Jet, and almost 10,000 turbine SIC time "
VERY IMPRESSIVE! I hope someday to have times like this.
"and a heck of a lot more experience than some of the 2000 to 4000 hour wonders"
I've got a few years of civilian flying experience and then nearly 20 years of military experience. I'll be on the high side of your range here when I get out with nearly ALL of it being trubine PIC. I don't consider myself a "wonder" and I would hope that you wouldn't consider me one either.
USMCFLYR
"I had almost 11,000 TT, 6000 Jet, and almost 10,000 turbine SIC time "
VERY IMPRESSIVE! I hope someday to have times like this.
"and a heck of a lot more experience than some of the 2000 to 4000 hour wonders"
I've got a few years of civilian flying experience and then nearly 20 years of military experience. I'll be on the high side of your range here when I get out with nearly ALL of it being trubine PIC. I don't consider myself a "wonder" and I would hope that you wouldn't consider me one either.
USMCFLYR
Semper fi, from a Cherry Point brat. No offense, but you also took my comments out of text. Not to stray from the thread, but you quoted only piece meals of my posting to make your point.
"I had almost 11,000 TT, 6000 Jet, and almost 10,000 turbine SIC time "
VERY IMPRESSIVE! I hope someday to have times like this.
But I also said I had ZERO PIC time and couldn't even get an interview because I was not qualified, that isn't so impressive even to you, I'd bet.
--------------------------------------------------------
"and a heck of a lot more experience than some of the 2000 to 4000 hour wonders"
I've got a few years of civilian flying experience and then nearly 20 years of military experience. I'll be on the high side of your range here when I get out with nearly ALL of it being trubine PIC. I don't consider myself a "wonder" and I would hope that you wouldn't consider me one either.
I've never met you, I hope you didn't think the comment applied to you. I did not single out you or anyone else.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The point of my post is there are a lot of experienced airman out there with tens of thousands of hours of widebody international flight time, but under 500 or 1000 hrs of PIC time. Thus in the realm of pilot hiring they do not meet the min quals of say Air Tran or UPS. However, a pilot with 2000 hrs TT whether it be flying an F18 like yourself or a CRJ is considered more qualified ? Not here to throw rocks, but the guy or gal with tens of thousands of hours and typed in let's say an MD11 should at least get some credit for his/her experience.
If you feel my statement of being a 2000 hr wonder applies to you, so be it. I did not single you out nor meant offense to you. But I don't agree that many candidates that have tens of thousands of hours are not considered qualified, whereas one's with a fifth of it, are.
Regards,
FF
Last edited by FliFast; 05-07-2008 at 09:04 PM.
05-07-2008, 04:51 PM
#90
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Mar 2008
Position: dogstyle
Posts: 375
I am an FO.
I am not invisible. In public, I try to present the image of the well groomed, calm, cool, confident, and charismatic pilot (after all, I represent my company, the mainline we contract with, and all my brethren). As often as not, when I am seen with my captain, passengers approach me with their questions. Maybe standing head down and acting invisible actually Caused you to BE INVISIBLE.
I am not redundant; nor am I a "tradition". I augment my captain by insuring he/she keeps the flight safe, legal, and prudent. After the dispatcher and the captain, I am the third person to review the release. While rare, errors can slip through, and I am the last line of defense. In flight, he seeks my input for weather avoidance, abnormality resolution, and efficiency.
I am not an autopilot. In nine years flying single pilot, I never once had the autopilot correct my mistaken read-back, insure my alternate was legal, confirm my fuel load was correct, complete my manifest, or support my decision when I had to talk to the feds.
Each time I fly with a captain for the first time, he gives me a cautious or jaundiced look. He has no idea what kind of an FO he is getting. I understand and don't take it personally. I just come in, do my job, and within a few legs he knows he has someone who can cut the mustard. He gives me as much responsibility and authority as is legal. After hearing my opinion, he may not always agree with me. That is his prerogative: he did sign for the aircraft. And until a captain does something Wrong or Unsafe, I will pop tall, salute, and carry on. But when I am faced with that one bad apple who does something really stupid, I will take it up the chain: I believe I have earned enough of a reputation, that my complaint will be heard.
I am not invisible. In public, I try to present the image of the well groomed, calm, cool, confident, and charismatic pilot (after all, I represent my company, the mainline we contract with, and all my brethren). As often as not, when I am seen with my captain, passengers approach me with their questions. Maybe standing head down and acting invisible actually Caused you to BE INVISIBLE.
I am not redundant; nor am I a "tradition". I augment my captain by insuring he/she keeps the flight safe, legal, and prudent. After the dispatcher and the captain, I am the third person to review the release. While rare, errors can slip through, and I am the last line of defense. In flight, he seeks my input for weather avoidance, abnormality resolution, and efficiency.
I am not an autopilot. In nine years flying single pilot, I never once had the autopilot correct my mistaken read-back, insure my alternate was legal, confirm my fuel load was correct, complete my manifest, or support my decision when I had to talk to the feds.
Each time I fly with a captain for the first time, he gives me a cautious or jaundiced look. He has no idea what kind of an FO he is getting. I understand and don't take it personally. I just come in, do my job, and within a few legs he knows he has someone who can cut the mustard. He gives me as much responsibility and authority as is legal. After hearing my opinion, he may not always agree with me. That is his prerogative: he did sign for the aircraft. And until a captain does something Wrong or Unsafe, I will pop tall, salute, and carry on. But when I am faced with that one bad apple who does something really stupid, I will take it up the chain: I believe I have earned enough of a reputation, that my complaint will be heard.
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