beis77

That is the attitude that gets people killed, and is the reason why CRM (crew resource management) has been such a hot topic these past couple of decades.

The FO is only as useful/ useless as you percieve them to be... If the CA holds them as incompetent; i.e refuses inputs and tells them not to touch anything, then they will most likely get a sack of potatoes in the right seat. Likewise, if a "good" CA asks for inputs and fosters good CRM, then a good FO is worth their weight in gold.

Nothing will shutdown a crew quicker than holding to that attitude that the FO should "sit there quietly look cute and competent but don't touch anything." If thats your attitude then you better be on your "A" game, because no one else is going to bail you out when you screw up; which is very dangerous/ unfortunate, because "everyones" life is on the line up there.

taylorjets

Happend to me the other day regarding the gear pin on push back...After Brake set and disconnect, a member of the push crew raised the pin for us to see. Capt. had his head down retrieving some info. I gave the thumbs up, but he refused to put the pin down until the Captain waived him off...

freezingflyboy

I may be just a lowly FO at a regional, but in 2.5 years in the right seat I've come to a few conclusions about CAs, how to deal with them and the type of CA I want to be when upgrade comes my way.

There are really two kinds of captains: there's the dbag-super-pilot "my-way-is-the-right-way" captain and then there's the "as long as we're standard, safe, legal and efficient then technique is at your discretion". Personally, I find that captains of the dbag-super-pilot type tend to shut down CRM with their overbearing attitudes. In my own experience, it's gotten so bad with one or two captains who were so disinterested in what I had to say or the techniques I liked to use to fly the airplane that I have told them straight up "look, I get paid the same whether I am talking on the radio or wiggling the yoke. If you're that unhappy with how I fly the airplane, why don't you take all the legs." I don't mind discussing technique or looking at different ways of doing things but when you decide to force YOUR way on me (when my methods are just as sound, safe and legal), that starts to chap my ass. This is the kind of captain that I would not wish on any FO.

On the other hand, the more laid back "technique at your discretion" types tend to foster more effective communication and input from all crew members and really bring out the best from everybody. That's the kind of captain I really enjoy working for and am more inclined to "go the extra mile" rather than just doing the required minimum. Having spent several years in a management position, I found that the best way to get results from people was to make your expectations known and then step back to supervise and support your people as needed rather than hounding them about how to do it.

I think it really comes down to respect. I have a hard time respecting the guy who doesn't show me respect. We don't have to be best friends but you give me some leeway to do my job and show me some respect and I guarantee that we will do just fine.

Sorry for the length...just the ramblings of a lowly FO who just finished a trip with a dbag-super-pilot

EDIT: Don't get me wrong; No matter what kind of captain you are, if I think you're wrong or you're about to get us in trouble, I can promise you that I will speak up.

beis77

I'm not sure where you are coming up with your stereotypes.

I've flown with both types of captains, and your first line is absolutely untrue. In most cases they've certainly spent just as much time as an FO as the next guy; it's just a matter of the "attitude" that they take with them as they progress from FO to CA.

I know from my own experiences; I've flown with some great CA's and some aweful ones (douchebags). Both are learning experiences, i.e. you learn what to do from the great ones, and learn what "not to do" from the bad ones. Both experiences are very valuable.

The nasty CA's as you put it, seem to be the ones that didn't learn from the great CA's. Instead, they focus on their negative experiences as an FO and are hell bent on making sure the FO's they fly with are miserable because that's how it was for them when they were young FO's, i.e. the whole "right of passage" bit.

The good CA's learn from both sets of experiences, and are hell bent on treating their FO's well, i.e. fostering team work, because they don't want to subject other crew members to the bad experiences they went through as young FO's. A good CA also realizes that their own attitude sets the "tone" around them. The rest of the crew is looking to them for leadership. How they choose to behave is up to them obviously. A good CA realizes this and uses this to foster a crew friendly environment.

A bad CA probably also realizes this, but just really doesn't give a ******.

alvrb211

Good points.

ALL PILOTs need to remember this: The greatest barrier to effective CRM is OUR OWN INDIVIDUAL PERSONALITIES!

This relates to psychology and managerial ability. Of course, an individual's work ethic is very significant too.

It certainly wouldn't hurt any Captain to have studied, or to have experience of people management, outside of the job.
All Captains should show up for every trip with the intention of getting the very best from their crew!
This is not done by bringing ego or baggage. Micro-managing or being over-controlling is often the sign of a Captain lacking confidence.

I'm very interested in management and industrial psychology and would like to hear from any one else with similar interests in the industry.

AL

SkyHigh

I spent time as an FO at four different companies as I moved up the ladder. I was a diligent, alert and hard working First Officer. At one company as a reward for being such a "good FO" by being intentionally pared with the worst captains. Once I reached the airlines I was usually on reserve for a year or two. As a pilot on reserve you are given the trips that everyone else dropped or bid around. Usually it meant flying with the worst of the worst in regards to captains and I was forced to do that trip after trip and year after year. Most of my crew experience was in dealing with the biggest AH's in the industry.

Eventually out of boredom and a desire not to walk off the job I made my position into a research laboratory of what made these Gems tick. I would spend the month listening to their stories, asking questions and putting together the pieces of why these guys were so nasty and what choices they made to get where they were in life. I was like a camillion and would strive to contort my training and personality into whatever they needed or wanted to see in the flight deck. In my experience I was at least 20 to 30 years apart from my captain in age. We had little in common and could not relate to each other very well.

In time even the most difficult captains began to appreciate me and started to request me by name if they could. I went to work with a smile on my face and was very nice but I was not happy in that thankless role. It takes a lot of personal energy to set aside your ego and personal beliefs in order to satisfy a self centered bully. Often these guys have been abandoned by their wife, children and friends. The First Officer is usually the only person that they have in their life who is forced to interact with them by the title of our position and in the interest of preserving CRM. Sometimes I think old crusty captains hold on to their job since all they have left in life is a dog at home who is waiting for his first opportunity to run away. If they did not hace a crew that was duty bound to deal with them then they would have no one else to talk (scream) at.

On the day my airline shutdown it was difficult to be very sad since all I could think about was that I would not have to fly with the next guy I was scheduled to that month. He was another prized individual. Being an FO is a difficult, invisible and thankless job. Usually we all reach the position with significant experience and education behind us. It is humiliating to be treated like a child again. Only aviation has such a tradition.

SkyHigh

Zapata

I don't understand *why you keep chiming in as it is obvious that you are not current with the industry now. However, I am beginning to realize that you weren't up to speed even when you were flying....especially with your attitude here.

This shows a severe lack of understanding about basic crew concept. Perhaps your ignorance contributed to your unwillingness or inability to cut the mustard.

With your view that an FO is just a mindless automaton, the industry, in regard to both union solidarity and safety, is just a little better off without you.



* Because you're bitter about your failures and you want to cut down the flying profession to make yourself feel better. Sorry man, I call 'em as I see 'em.

SkyHigh

Let's not forget the number one reason that First Officers are invisible !!

Their flight time is valued at next to nothing in regards to getting a job with most major airlines. Turbine PIC is the bottom line. FO time nearly worthless.

Oh yea, and FO's are paid 60 to 70% of what captains make. Yet another example of their value to the industry.

The only thing that matters is reaching the left seat. Until then you might as well be invisible.

SkyHigh

TonyWilliams

SkyHigh,

I'm fortunate to have an F/O experience completely opposite from yours. That doesn't mean I haven't been in some challenging captain situations, but so far, I consider them relatively benign.

Obviously, you've been scared by these experiences enough to continue to relive them here. Have you considered counseling ?

johnso29

Seeing as you're they only one on here with these experiences, I'm starting to think it wasn't the CAs.