AMR to file for bankruptcy?
04-01-2008, 07:50 AM
#22
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Aug 2007
Position: 737 CA MIA
Posts: 1,042
They're after the A-Fund retirement. There are so many (relatively) very senior pilots retiring with very large pensions, this is hurting AMR, supposedly. It seems that the guys who have it good want to get out while they're ahead, but who's to blame them?
I have heard that at or about forty more senior pilots, mostly 777 captains, retired today. Yes, forty in one day; and it's only the first of April. (Incidentally, I'm pretty sure this isn't an April Fools' Joke.) Could any AA pilots elaborate on or confirm this?
The irony of the situation, is that the uniformed general public is not getting the whole story from those who are supposed to inform; who themselves, incidentally, are probably mal-informed or manipulated by AMR. AA pilots may have "great" pay and benefits by today's standards, but what the press fails to mention is that it is only a shadow of what the pilots had before concessions. And it's not just the pilots, the FAs have suffered, and I'm sure the MXs have as well. AA pilots are not simply being greedy rich pilots, as the article would have the common reader believe, they are dissatisfied because the concessions they made - which were promised to be given back - have not yet seen the light of day for several years now. They were concessions to keep the company afloat, to secure their job-future. Now that AMR is posting profits (and quite substantial ones at that, or so I understand), it is only right that the labor starts getting back what they were once worth.
If I may make a prediction, based solely on an educated, but still amateur opinion; I'd say that AA pilots will get the pay they want, or very near. However, it will cost them the A-Fund Retirement.
Incidentally, my little bit of info regarding retirements came from a conversation with an AA Captain yesterday in LGA. For what it's worth.
Oh, one last thing (while I'm ranting, if ya'll don't mind
): I think that pilot pay will go up. Not back to what it was back in the "Golden Days", but it will be more substantial. My reasoning behind this assumption are two facts: 1) there are not enough American student pilots to fill the void that the Baby-Boomer Generation will leave behind. 2) Foreign Airlines, that hire FAA licenses, are paying very well, for the most part. Soon enough, there won't be much incentive to state State-Side; so the American airlines will be forced to compete with a higher paying market.
One might argue that foreign pilots would be willing to come over here and work for less, assuming they could get work permits. However, I can't imagine that enough Europeans or Asians would come over here to make low-wages, while they're living comfortably at home.
I have heard that at or about forty more senior pilots, mostly 777 captains, retired today. Yes, forty in one day; and it's only the first of April. (Incidentally, I'm pretty sure this isn't an April Fools' Joke.) Could any AA pilots elaborate on or confirm this?
The irony of the situation, is that the uniformed general public is not getting the whole story from those who are supposed to inform; who themselves, incidentally, are probably mal-informed or manipulated by AMR. AA pilots may have "great" pay and benefits by today's standards, but what the press fails to mention is that it is only a shadow of what the pilots had before concessions. And it's not just the pilots, the FAs have suffered, and I'm sure the MXs have as well. AA pilots are not simply being greedy rich pilots, as the article would have the common reader believe, they are dissatisfied because the concessions they made - which were promised to be given back - have not yet seen the light of day for several years now. They were concessions to keep the company afloat, to secure their job-future. Now that AMR is posting profits (and quite substantial ones at that, or so I understand), it is only right that the labor starts getting back what they were once worth.
If I may make a prediction, based solely on an educated, but still amateur opinion; I'd say that AA pilots will get the pay they want, or very near. However, it will cost them the A-Fund Retirement.
Incidentally, my little bit of info regarding retirements came from a conversation with an AA Captain yesterday in LGA. For what it's worth.
Oh, one last thing (while I'm ranting, if ya'll don't mind
): I think that pilot pay will go up. Not back to what it was back in the "Golden Days", but it will be more substantial. My reasoning behind this assumption are two facts: 1) there are not enough American student pilots to fill the void that the Baby-Boomer Generation will leave behind. 2) Foreign Airlines, that hire FAA licenses, are paying very well, for the most part. Soon enough, there won't be much incentive to state State-Side; so the American airlines will be forced to compete with a higher paying market.One might argue that foreign pilots would be willing to come over here and work for less, assuming they could get work permits. However, I can't imagine that enough Europeans or Asians would come over here to make low-wages, while they're living comfortably at home.
Hi Danzig,
Just to respond in a nice way if it can come accross that way on the interent.
Maybe AA mangement is after our A fund. But if it were negotiated away it would be for a 401K match or a big boost to the B-Fund.
Our new APA Pres is pretty tenacious and I do not feel he'll leave any money on the table.
There is also a lot of misconception out there about United losing it's A-Fund pension. Yes, it is gone. Yes that is horrible. But one of my United friends who had $150K in his UAL A Fund was issued a check for $40K after exiting BK. A lot of people do not know that. Not saying it's good, it's not. But A-Funds don't just go POOF!
And that was BK caused.
Word is that 58 or so retired yesterday. Many were 777 CA's. Not all though. I was hoping for more.
Again, AA pilots retiring on April 1 actually mar 31 but we say Apr 1, those pilots got to use the December 07 unit value for their B Fund calculation it was quite high. From Jan 08 on it (the B fund unit value) plummeted downward.
I do not think we will see anymore retirements for a while unless a strike looms or the next contract looks like a step backwards in pay and work rules, then many more would retire.
I for one will not accept any backwards steps on the next contract.
AMR is not posting huge profits. The fourth Q was a loss of 60 million. And a net for Last year was 560 Mil. I guess that is a lot. I know we'll lose money the Q and the next.
The AA pilots only recieve profit sharing after 500 mil.
The AA FA's while they love to complain were in 2003 on an industry leading contract. They took an 8 % pay cut compared to the pilots 23.5% pay cut. And the only work rule chnges for the FA's were consistently shorter RON's. Hey you get home sooner.
Don't get me wrong I totally respect our FA's and support them and ALL the former TWA FA"S of which some are coming back. Flew with one last month.
But the true answer for AA is OMG there is so much going on here and I know nothing. Fear grenades landing everywhere.
7576
hope I answered a couple things.
04-01-2008, 07:55 AM
#23
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Aug 2007
Position: 737 CA MIA
Posts: 1,042
Maybe AA mangement is after our A fund. But if it were negotiated away it would be for a 401K match or a big boost to the B-Fund.
Our new APA Pres is pretty tenacious and I do not feel he'll leave any money on the table.
There is also a lot of misconception out there about United losing it's A-Fund pension. Yes, it is gone. Yes that is horrible. But one of my United friends who had $150K in his UAL A Fund was issued a check for $40K after exiting BK. A lot of people do not know that. Not saying it's good, it's not. But A-Funds don't just go POOF!
And that was BK caused.
Quoted myself here. Not speaking for any other airline Pension plans. This is what my UAL buddie told me about his A Plan.
And recieving the 40K form the settlement of losing his pension totally screwed up his next 401K for maxed out.
Our new APA Pres is pretty tenacious and I do not feel he'll leave any money on the table.
There is also a lot of misconception out there about United losing it's A-Fund pension. Yes, it is gone. Yes that is horrible. But one of my United friends who had $150K in his UAL A Fund was issued a check for $40K after exiting BK. A lot of people do not know that. Not saying it's good, it's not. But A-Funds don't just go POOF!
And that was BK caused.
Quoted myself here. Not speaking for any other airline Pension plans. This is what my UAL buddie told me about his A Plan.
And recieving the 40K form the settlement of losing his pension totally screwed up his next 401K for maxed out.
04-01-2008, 09:16 AM
#24
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Dec 2006
Position: I was acquired, Not Hired
Posts: 1,784
7576FO,
I'd have to agree with you that, "beware, the wolf is lurking". Hopefully, the threats of bankruptcy are not soon followed with a suspension of recalls and subsequent furloughes. I know we all are saying "nay" this will never happen, but I think the industry's state of affairs are still shaky.
Hopefully a turn back to the good is not far off.
Regards,
FF
I'd have to agree with you that, "beware, the wolf is lurking". Hopefully, the threats of bankruptcy are not soon followed with a suspension of recalls and subsequent furloughes. I know we all are saying "nay" this will never happen, but I think the industry's state of affairs are still shaky.
Hopefully a turn back to the good is not far off.
Regards,
FF
04-01-2008, 04:55 PM
#26
AAmerican Way for AA Pay
Joined APC: Oct 2005
Position: B-737 Pilot
Posts: 1,617
04-01-2008, 05:33 PM
#27
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jul 2006
Posts: 2,918
as a side note, we do not have any round dials anymore... they are all converted to EFIS (if you can even call it that anymore - just 4-tube EADI and EHSI.)
73
04-01-2008, 08:29 PM
#28
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Oct 2006
Posts: 231
There isn't anybody to buy Eagle. Basically (with a few exceptions) they are a 50 seat (or less) jet operation flying planes that are old and can't make money without being subsidized. Look at the stock prices of regionals that have the same profile and it is not pretty. You vastly over estimate the value of Eagle. I agree if they could figure out a way to get rid of Eagle AMR's stock might go up, but it would be because they got rid of a big drag and not because the sale would help the balance sheet.
Now after all that I do not think AMR is headed to court and the article that started this thread says AMR doesn't understand the speculation about it either. I don't think any cosmic messages are being sent by AMR, but they are attempting to control expectations. The problem management has at AMR is they want to be rewarded like they're flying high while throwing crumbs to the employees. If I worked there I'd be cranky too......
Now after all that I do not think AMR is headed to court and the article that started this thread says AMR doesn't understand the speculation about it either. I don't think any cosmic messages are being sent by AMR, but they are attempting to control expectations. The problem management has at AMR is they want to be rewarded like they're flying high while throwing crumbs to the employees. If I worked there I'd be cranky too......
04-01-2008, 09:45 PM
#29
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Mar 2005
Posts: 108
I definitly wouldn't say Eagle is AMR's only problem. The fleet needs to be updated on the AA and Eagle side. I don't think the sale of Eagle is the answer. It is a short term solution to a long term problem. It is kind of like burning the furniture to heat the house. The goal should be how we can collectively function together to remain competitive. It is my believe that AMR would be much better of by merging the two, so they can right size the workforce and the fleet to fit the industry. AA and Eagle has separate management and a merger should allow us to chop the number of management in half. That alone excites me. ALPA and APA have had discussions on one list for years and I think the time is finally right for both sides. Flame away!
AMR might be better off with a merged list but reality bites and I realize it'll never happen. Eagle will be spun-off later this year in some form of stock swap because noone will buy worthless 35 seat RJ's while oil is priced at these levels. I think some Eagle pilots will flow through to AA as intended but those that don't should crank up the resume production again.
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