fuel hedges
03-14-2008, 10:29 AM
#22
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Dec 2007
Position: Coach
Posts: 117
03-14-2008, 10:29 AM
#23
APC's Hired Help
Joined APC: Dec 2005
Posts: 1,231
HSLD posted this on a different topic on the Regional forum, but the point he makes is applicable here as well.....
So, with that said, can we get back to discussing fuel hedges?
The by-product of a successful pilot contract is that if you have industry leading pay - someone else is working for less.
Now, think about that in the context of pay for departure agreements. Regional labor getting whipsawed and you attack each other? Amazing.
Pattern collective bargaining only works when the bottom labor groups leapfrog each other to set a new high mark that raises the average pay. As the industry enters another down cycle, forums like this one can (for the first time) provide transparency of issues in near real time across company boundaries.
The industry is primed to real ugly, real fast. The question is to we fight each other over marketing agreements which line pilots have little or no control. Or, do we collectively support each other in the pattern bargaining process?
For those pilots about to endure your first economic down cycle, get ready, it's eye-watering. It's doubly so when your fighting fellow line pilots (regardless of the uniform).
And people ask why we don't have political or religion forums here
Now, think about that in the context of pay for departure agreements. Regional labor getting whipsawed and you attack each other? Amazing.
Pattern collective bargaining only works when the bottom labor groups leapfrog each other to set a new high mark that raises the average pay. As the industry enters another down cycle, forums like this one can (for the first time) provide transparency of issues in near real time across company boundaries.
The industry is primed to real ugly, real fast. The question is to we fight each other over marketing agreements which line pilots have little or no control. Or, do we collectively support each other in the pattern bargaining process?
For those pilots about to endure your first economic down cycle, get ready, it's eye-watering. It's doubly so when your fighting fellow line pilots (regardless of the uniform).
And people ask why we don't have political or religion forums here
03-14-2008, 10:39 AM
#24
HOSED BY PBS AGAIN
Joined APC: Mar 2005
Posts: 1,713
03-14-2008, 11:55 AM
#25
Don't want to participate
Joined APC: Jul 2005
Position: 737 Left Seat
Posts: 1,016
Opus -
1. There's a terminal being torn down now in Tampa - at taxpayer expense. Probably soon another terminal built - at taxpayer expense. Southwest got to use the new terminal - so what - is there some reason that your company was entitled to it?
2. SWA planes in places like BWI tend to be able to move in and out of the gate fairly easily. If you were blocking other traffic because your ground crews weren't out there, it isn't somebody else's fault, it's your company's fault.
3. If your wages were based on LCC cost structure, you either accepted them or not. It's not SWA's fault, it's not SWAPA's fault, it's your company's fault. Stop blaming us for it, we have labor rates that bring the average up. It the remaining costs of your company are high, and they have put that on the shoulders of labor, that's your company's fault.
I'm sorry that you were denied a jumpseat based on company policy. I don't see how you could hold a grudge for a captain following company rules ten years ago!
I've not wished bankruptcy or liquidation on anyone. I seriously don't know what I can do for you here, just get a different scapegoat. The bad press we've gotten lately - apparently that's our fault. The situation at whatever company you're at - that's not our fault.
1. There's a terminal being torn down now in Tampa - at taxpayer expense. Probably soon another terminal built - at taxpayer expense. Southwest got to use the new terminal - so what - is there some reason that your company was entitled to it?
2. SWA planes in places like BWI tend to be able to move in and out of the gate fairly easily. If you were blocking other traffic because your ground crews weren't out there, it isn't somebody else's fault, it's your company's fault.
3. If your wages were based on LCC cost structure, you either accepted them or not. It's not SWA's fault, it's not SWAPA's fault, it's your company's fault. Stop blaming us for it, we have labor rates that bring the average up. It the remaining costs of your company are high, and they have put that on the shoulders of labor, that's your company's fault.
I'm sorry that you were denied a jumpseat based on company policy. I don't see how you could hold a grudge for a captain following company rules ten years ago!
I've not wished bankruptcy or liquidation on anyone. I seriously don't know what I can do for you here, just get a different scapegoat. The bad press we've gotten lately - apparently that's our fault. The situation at whatever company you're at - that's not our fault.
Last edited by LuvJockey; 03-14-2008 at 12:26 PM.
03-14-2008, 02:25 PM
#26
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: May 2006
Posts: 840
I hate to say it but I am not so sure the average SWA pax is truly a news follower. Unless they scroll the news of SWA groundings across the weekly NASCAR race or put it in the next issue of "Inmates and Spouses Daily" most SWA pax will never know there was a problem. It is also my reason why I think most people don't complain about SWA service. For one they don't expect much and secondly they are not the most in-tune with procedures for such a report.
When the "wife beater" T-shirt is the business power suit of your clients, a fine by the FAA will not be a big issue.
When the "wife beater" T-shirt is the business power suit of your clients, a fine by the FAA will not be a big issue.
03-14-2008, 07:23 PM
#28
Gets Weekends Off
Thread Starter
Joined APC: Feb 2008
Position: 330Fo
Posts: 215
Luvjockey,
When I started this thread it was to display what each airline had in fuel hedges not beat up on SWA. I do not blame SWA for anything. All I said was that the arguement that management teams made at all the legacy carriers was that their pricing power had been affected by the LCC and ergo the legacy carriers had lost pricing power. That has been a well published platform. SWA management has been effective, no doubt, and that's been great for you guys. I do not blame SWA for anything as the market place is the market place, however, the people at SWA must be concerned that while the legacy carriers are taking 40 plus percent paycuts the Flight Attendants at SWA extracted a contract from Herb making them not only the highest paid in the U.S but the world as well.
I am glad SWA is holding up salaries, I think I said that in a previous post, but to think that the gravey train that has existed there is going to continue maybe a little myopic. 6-7 year upgrades with payraises every year etc. Hey, listen, the best thing that could happen in this industry is that all carriers are able to match fares with costs.
And for the record it was not just one pilot that was denied SWA jumpseat in September 98 there were 112 of us. NWA alpa then instructed us not to endeavor jumpseating on WN.
When I started this thread it was to display what each airline had in fuel hedges not beat up on SWA. I do not blame SWA for anything. All I said was that the arguement that management teams made at all the legacy carriers was that their pricing power had been affected by the LCC and ergo the legacy carriers had lost pricing power. That has been a well published platform. SWA management has been effective, no doubt, and that's been great for you guys. I do not blame SWA for anything as the market place is the market place, however, the people at SWA must be concerned that while the legacy carriers are taking 40 plus percent paycuts the Flight Attendants at SWA extracted a contract from Herb making them not only the highest paid in the U.S but the world as well.
I am glad SWA is holding up salaries, I think I said that in a previous post, but to think that the gravey train that has existed there is going to continue maybe a little myopic. 6-7 year upgrades with payraises every year etc. Hey, listen, the best thing that could happen in this industry is that all carriers are able to match fares with costs.
And for the record it was not just one pilot that was denied SWA jumpseat in September 98 there were 112 of us. NWA alpa then instructed us not to endeavor jumpseating on WN.
03-14-2008, 07:47 PM
#29
Don't want to participate
Joined APC: Jul 2005
Position: 737 Left Seat
Posts: 1,016
Opus - I am definitely concerned about keeping pay rates up. I can tell you that SWA has definitely raised fares over the last years, not enough to make everyone happy, but then we don't control all of the fare practices - lately there has been a lot of last minute seat dumping going on. That didn't used to happen very much, but now happens regularly because of airlines selling blocks of seats to companies like priceline, with whom SWA does not participate. If management wants control of fare levels, they could start there.
Again, I'm sorry about the jumpseat thing back in 1998. Jumpseat agreements are made between companies, not between individual pilots. Most of the time, jumpseaters are treated pretty well here.
One more thing. The most rude pilot I have ever shared a hotel shuttle with was a NW guy who asked me about our contract negotiations, then berated me because we didn't have pensions, and called us glorified commuter pilots who would never earn a decent paycheck (LAX Marriot shuttle 2001.) I don't hold it against NW guys, just figured he was a special case. The captain that he was flying with just smiled. I don't hold that against NW guys, and I even talk to y'all every now and then on the bus.
Anyhow, this subject may have been intended to be about fuel hedges, but it rapidly declined to a good round of SWA bashing. SWA has been hedging fuel since well before 2000, it's an insurance policy not an investment. This board has become less of an honest discussion and more of an insult comic routine.
Again, I'm sorry about the jumpseat thing back in 1998. Jumpseat agreements are made between companies, not between individual pilots. Most of the time, jumpseaters are treated pretty well here.
One more thing. The most rude pilot I have ever shared a hotel shuttle with was a NW guy who asked me about our contract negotiations, then berated me because we didn't have pensions, and called us glorified commuter pilots who would never earn a decent paycheck (LAX Marriot shuttle 2001.) I don't hold it against NW guys, just figured he was a special case. The captain that he was flying with just smiled. I don't hold that against NW guys, and I even talk to y'all every now and then on the bus.
Anyhow, this subject may have been intended to be about fuel hedges, but it rapidly declined to a good round of SWA bashing. SWA has been hedging fuel since well before 2000, it's an insurance policy not an investment. This board has become less of an honest discussion and more of an insult comic routine.
Last edited by LuvJockey; 03-14-2008 at 07:56 PM.
03-14-2008, 08:31 PM
#30
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Feb 2007
Position: 737 FO
Posts: 139
Okay, sorry I fired you up but I'll do my best to give examples.
1) new terminal in Tampa. Who paid for it? Taxpayers
2) landing and gate fees in Albany.
3) If you don't think you get favored handling at BWI, TPA, West Palm and others than you are mistaken. We were holding outside of our gate waiting for rampers to park us while a SWA jet was about to taxi out. Ground told us do a 180 and move out of the way so SWA could pass. We said no and that our ground crew would be out within thirty seconds he ripped into us and gave us a number to call. So, before you start callling me names why don't do a little investigating yourself and find out what deals your company has made with various airports before they agree to service them.
As for BK. The documentation management teams put out to us for the necessity of taking forty plus percent paycuts was based on LCC price structure.
As for SWA rejecting NWA striking jumpseaters ten years ago I am over it. And you don't have to worry about me asking for any of your jumpseats. For the record I got home via American whose management also had a policy at the time of not allowing NWA pilots on the jumpseat.
Maybe the source of ire from so many is that SWA seems to be outside of all the other groups. SWAPA not alpa. Not on orbitz or part of any alliance and I realize that has worked well for SWA so far but at some point the commonality of this profession should come into play. The idea, that made me sick, was that if only UsAir or then United would go out of business that would heal the industry and airlines like SWA could continue to grow. Well, Pan Am went out of business as did Eastern and that didn't heal our industry. And what about the families at UsAir/United or whoever does anybody care about them?
I am sorry I started this thread. If you think I want SWA to fall on hard times you are mistaken. I hope/pray that you are able to hold on to your pay or even get a raise and if you do so happen to go on strike you will be welcomed on my jumpseat.
1) new terminal in Tampa. Who paid for it? Taxpayers
2) landing and gate fees in Albany.
3) If you don't think you get favored handling at BWI, TPA, West Palm and others than you are mistaken. We were holding outside of our gate waiting for rampers to park us while a SWA jet was about to taxi out. Ground told us do a 180 and move out of the way so SWA could pass. We said no and that our ground crew would be out within thirty seconds he ripped into us and gave us a number to call. So, before you start callling me names why don't do a little investigating yourself and find out what deals your company has made with various airports before they agree to service them.
As for BK. The documentation management teams put out to us for the necessity of taking forty plus percent paycuts was based on LCC price structure.
As for SWA rejecting NWA striking jumpseaters ten years ago I am over it. And you don't have to worry about me asking for any of your jumpseats. For the record I got home via American whose management also had a policy at the time of not allowing NWA pilots on the jumpseat.
Maybe the source of ire from so many is that SWA seems to be outside of all the other groups. SWAPA not alpa. Not on orbitz or part of any alliance and I realize that has worked well for SWA so far but at some point the commonality of this profession should come into play. The idea, that made me sick, was that if only UsAir or then United would go out of business that would heal the industry and airlines like SWA could continue to grow. Well, Pan Am went out of business as did Eastern and that didn't heal our industry. And what about the families at UsAir/United or whoever does anybody care about them?
I am sorry I started this thread. If you think I want SWA to fall on hard times you are mistaken. I hope/pray that you are able to hold on to your pay or even get a raise and if you do so happen to go on strike you will be welcomed on my jumpseat.
2.?
3. If your ground crew was not out there then get out of the way.
4. If your company would base its pay like ours you would get a big pay raise.
5. ALPA are you kidding me. Been there done that. We are starting to use stuff like orbitz now.
6. Gordon Bethune one said give me US Air route structure and I will make millions.
Thread
Thread Starter
Forum
Replies
Last Post
