fuel hedges
03-13-2008, 04:56 PM
#11
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Apr 2007
Position: B777 Capt
Posts: 844
If you listen to their CEO the business model only worked last year due to hedges. Without them they would have lost money. So to say the model works is to say it only works with oil at the hedged amount. Put them up to the rest of the industry and they lose money.
Also, the other carriers do get a significant amount of revenue in dollars outside of the US currency. That helps offset some of the cost and is a benefit that SWA does not have. Perhaps the mx issue will make them focus on keeping their house in order. Spending 10.5 million to pay for fines can not be a fun check to write.
Also, the other carriers do get a significant amount of revenue in dollars outside of the US currency. That helps offset some of the cost and is a benefit that SWA does not have. Perhaps the mx issue will make them focus on keeping their house in order. Spending 10.5 million to pay for fines can not be a fun check to write.
03-13-2008, 06:22 PM
#12
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Feb 2006
Position: Mayor of Awesometown
Posts: 137
A reality show is not an accurate sample of a population...passengers on SWA in this situation. Sure, they focus in on the drunk guy screaming at the CSA...that sells...that's T.V. But to say that 1% should be extrapolated over the entire Southwest passenger demographic is a little flawed. Hop on a flight from DAL to HOU and count the lawyers in their Armani some time...
Not that any of the above really matters in the grand scheme, but the idea that any given Southwest flight has a total of 8 teeth on board is getting old.
And hedging, whether you like it or not, is a legitimate piece of a business model...read this commentary from a reputable 'street analysis firm posted today: http://www.fool.com/investing/genera...outhworst.aspx
Not that any of the above really matters in the grand scheme, but the idea that any given Southwest flight has a total of 8 teeth on board is getting old.
And hedging, whether you like it or not, is a legitimate piece of a business model...read this commentary from a reputable 'street analysis firm posted today: http://www.fool.com/investing/genera...outhworst.aspx
Last edited by Runner; 03-13-2008 at 06:28 PM.
03-13-2008, 08:06 PM
#13
Line Holder
Joined APC: Jun 2006
Position: SWA Poolie
Posts: 89
I hate to say it but I am not so sure the average SWA pax is truly a news follower. Unless they scroll the news of SWA groundings across the weekly NASCAR race or put it in the next issue of "Inmates and Spouses Daily" most SWA pax will never know there was a problem. It is also my reason why I think most people don't complain about SWA service. For one they don't expect much and secondly they are not the most in-tune with procedures for such a report.
When the "wife beater" T-shirt is the business power suit of your clients, a fine by the FAA will not be a big issue.
When the "wife beater" T-shirt is the business power suit of your clients, a fine by the FAA will not be a big issue.
there are 300 million Americans, a lot of whom don't make as much money as you do Lambourne. You infer that SWA's customer base is ignorant, based on what...a few episodes of "Airline?" Please defend your logic based on the total number of pax that SWA flew last year. For you, SWA's customers are an easy target. Picking on us probably makes you feel better. It's certainly easier than making fun of SWA's hedges or business model.
I'm not an airline guy. I'm a paying SWA customer, tomorrow in fact. LIT to OAK. I'll be the only guy not wearing a wife beater so that should make me easy to find. We can share a spit cup and you can tell me all about how much better and safer your airline is.
03-14-2008, 05:31 AM
#14
Don't want to participate
Joined APC: Jul 2005
Position: 737 Left Seat
Posts: 1,016
Lambourne is a United guy that blames the state of his company on SWA. The hedges/non-hedges profitability whining has been going on now for years, and the insults have been going on for decades. With the bad press we've been getting lately, the bashers seem to crawl out of their holes to take their shots.
03-14-2008, 06:17 AM
#15
Gets Weekends Off
Thread Starter
Joined APC: Feb 2008
Position: 330Fo
Posts: 215
When I posted this thread my only intention was to show how the airlines are quite exposed to the variance in jet fuel prices as only a small percentage of fuel is hedged. I am sorry this thread has turned into a social study of the education levels and social status of various pax groups. However, if you would like to make the arguement that the average person is, how do I say this without offending, far more challenged by their mental abilities than say a person thirty years ago well, then, you might make for an interesting arguement.
I know a lot of people have a lot of love, pardon the pun, for SWA but there are some of us that get tired of the SWA worship. I'll be blunt. It gets old when you're constantly vectored around to let a SWA plane go infront of you. It gets old when ATC ground tells you to hold your position while a SWA jet goes by at mach speed. It gets old when airports build a new terminal for SWA/give away the gates and landing fees and then up the charges on everybody else. SWA lowered fares so much that helped push 4 legacy carriers go into bk. You will say that is the way the market works. I will say, okay, well now that SWA has the highest paid pilots, mechanics and FAs be careful of how much you say how you love how the markets work.
For me personally, it was in 1998 when NWA pilots were on strike and the SWA guys wouldn't let us ride their jumpseat being how we weren't employed pilots, I believe that is what the captain said to me. I said, 'okay' walked away. I haven't tried to ride their jumpseat since nor will I ever again.
With all this being said, it is in our (airline industry) best interest for SWA to be successful. Not have their company go to the employees to subsidize the business model but have SWA be able to raise fare so that all of us can have their airline price their product at or above costs.
I know a lot of people have a lot of love, pardon the pun, for SWA but there are some of us that get tired of the SWA worship. I'll be blunt. It gets old when you're constantly vectored around to let a SWA plane go infront of you. It gets old when ATC ground tells you to hold your position while a SWA jet goes by at mach speed. It gets old when airports build a new terminal for SWA/give away the gates and landing fees and then up the charges on everybody else. SWA lowered fares so much that helped push 4 legacy carriers go into bk. You will say that is the way the market works. I will say, okay, well now that SWA has the highest paid pilots, mechanics and FAs be careful of how much you say how you love how the markets work.
For me personally, it was in 1998 when NWA pilots were on strike and the SWA guys wouldn't let us ride their jumpseat being how we weren't employed pilots, I believe that is what the captain said to me. I said, 'okay' walked away. I haven't tried to ride their jumpseat since nor will I ever again.
With all this being said, it is in our (airline industry) best interest for SWA to be successful. Not have their company go to the employees to subsidize the business model but have SWA be able to raise fare so that all of us can have their airline price their product at or above costs.
03-14-2008, 06:27 AM
#16
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jul 2007
Position: 744 CA
Posts: 4,772
First.... SWA is hardly the lowest cost carrier on many routes they fly today. They have a very loyal following and it shows. I was DH'ing on a Delta flight to ATL the other day and the gentleman next to me while complimentary of DAL was a loyal SWA flyer and simply used DAL because SWA doesnt fly there. He even chimed in that he was almost willing to fly to BHM and rent a car rather just to fly them.....
As for business models...most airlines are their own worst enemy...they should look inward first before blaming others for their shortcomings.
As for business models...most airlines are their own worst enemy...they should look inward first before blaming others for their shortcomings.
03-14-2008, 06:44 AM
#17
*********
Joined APC: Dec 2007
Posts: 1,068
I don't fly SWA but I have seen your TV show a few times. Can't say I see many suits on the passenger or even on the employees. The casual look seems to have gone overboard and with the non-uniform uniforms. Not sure if the is a reflection on the passenger or the employee that triggered the look.
Makes my trip more enjoyable.
03-14-2008, 07:09 AM
#18
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jan 2008
Posts: 536
Lambourne is just looking for a reason to Bash the LCC's, and blame them for the state of the industry. Don't blame the LCC's, blame deregulation, and as far as the Hedges comment and their business model, why don't you turn the tables and talk about the Bankrupcy Laws that allowed the Legacy's to stay in business when clearly their unprofitable business should have resulted in a Liquidation that would have reduced capacity across the board and benefitted the whole industry.
I am not advocating any pilot be put on the Street, but I am just playing devils advocate. Before you make a bold statement bashing one company, make sure you look at the "Man in the Mirror" evey now and then.
Good luck to all, this Industry is in for a Shake Up, I just hope the profession returns to some form of respect for wages and benefits for ALL PILOT's regardless of who you work for.
I am not advocating any pilot be put on the Street, but I am just playing devils advocate. Before you make a bold statement bashing one company, make sure you look at the "Man in the Mirror" evey now and then.
Good luck to all, this Industry is in for a Shake Up, I just hope the profession returns to some form of respect for wages and benefits for ALL PILOT's regardless of who you work for.
03-14-2008, 08:42 AM
#19
Don't want to participate
Joined APC: Jul 2005
Position: 737 Left Seat
Posts: 1,016
Opus -
Your post is ridiculous. There are a lot of SWA airplanes out there, but I routinely get vectored around for other aircraft. I think you're paranoid.
Which airport built a brand new terminal for SWA and gave it away for free while upping everyone else's fees? I have a feeling that's another SWA legend.
I'll be blunt, too. It gets old being blamed for the condition of everyone else's airline. If you want to blame it on deregulation, that's fine. If you want to blame it on outsourcing, that's fine too. But to blame it on your competition is ridiculous. That's a great argument for management types wanting to keep labor rates low (it worked for Uncle Herb for years) but the idea that SWA with around 15% of industry capacity "pushed" 4 major carriers into bankruptcy is absurd.
Sorry about your jumpseating experience ten years ago. Our jumpseating rules are made by management and negotiated by our pilot's association, I don't know what it was ten years ago - come back and I'll try to make it up to you. Otherwise "get over it, or die with it."
Your post is ridiculous. There are a lot of SWA airplanes out there, but I routinely get vectored around for other aircraft. I think you're paranoid.
Which airport built a brand new terminal for SWA and gave it away for free while upping everyone else's fees? I have a feeling that's another SWA legend.
I'll be blunt, too. It gets old being blamed for the condition of everyone else's airline. If you want to blame it on deregulation, that's fine. If you want to blame it on outsourcing, that's fine too. But to blame it on your competition is ridiculous. That's a great argument for management types wanting to keep labor rates low (it worked for Uncle Herb for years) but the idea that SWA with around 15% of industry capacity "pushed" 4 major carriers into bankruptcy is absurd.
Sorry about your jumpseating experience ten years ago. Our jumpseating rules are made by management and negotiated by our pilot's association, I don't know what it was ten years ago - come back and I'll try to make it up to you. Otherwise "get over it, or die with it."
03-14-2008, 09:54 AM
#20
Gets Weekends Off
Thread Starter
Joined APC: Feb 2008
Position: 330Fo
Posts: 215
Okay, sorry I fired you up but I'll do my best to give examples.
1) new terminal in Tampa. Who paid for it? Taxpayers
2) landing and gate fees in Albany.
3) If you don't think you get favored handling at BWI, TPA, West Palm and others than you are mistaken. We were holding outside of our gate waiting for rampers to park us while a SWA jet was about to taxi out. Ground told us do a 180 and move out of the way so SWA could pass. We said no and that our ground crew would be out within thirty seconds he ripped into us and gave us a number to call. So, before you start callling me names why don't do a little investigating yourself and find out what deals your company has made with various airports before they agree to service them.
As for BK. The documentation management teams put out to us for the necessity of taking forty plus percent paycuts was based on LCC price structure.
As for SWA rejecting NWA striking jumpseaters ten years ago I am over it. And you don't have to worry about me asking for any of your jumpseats. For the record I got home via American whose management also had a policy at the time of not allowing NWA pilots on the jumpseat.
Maybe the source of ire from so many is that SWA seems to be outside of all the other groups. SWAPA not alpa. Not on orbitz or part of any alliance and I realize that has worked well for SWA so far but at some point the commonality of this profession should come into play. The idea, that made me sick, was that if only UsAir or then United would go out of business that would heal the industry and airlines like SWA could continue to grow. Well, Pan Am went out of business as did Eastern and that didn't heal our industry. And what about the families at UsAir/United or whoever does anybody care about them?
I am sorry I started this thread. If you think I want SWA to fall on hard times you are mistaken. I hope/pray that you are able to hold on to your pay or even get a raise and if you do so happen to go on strike you will be welcomed on my jumpseat.
1) new terminal in Tampa. Who paid for it? Taxpayers
2) landing and gate fees in Albany.
3) If you don't think you get favored handling at BWI, TPA, West Palm and others than you are mistaken. We were holding outside of our gate waiting for rampers to park us while a SWA jet was about to taxi out. Ground told us do a 180 and move out of the way so SWA could pass. We said no and that our ground crew would be out within thirty seconds he ripped into us and gave us a number to call. So, before you start callling me names why don't do a little investigating yourself and find out what deals your company has made with various airports before they agree to service them.
As for BK. The documentation management teams put out to us for the necessity of taking forty plus percent paycuts was based on LCC price structure.
As for SWA rejecting NWA striking jumpseaters ten years ago I am over it. And you don't have to worry about me asking for any of your jumpseats. For the record I got home via American whose management also had a policy at the time of not allowing NWA pilots on the jumpseat.
Maybe the source of ire from so many is that SWA seems to be outside of all the other groups. SWAPA not alpa. Not on orbitz or part of any alliance and I realize that has worked well for SWA so far but at some point the commonality of this profession should come into play. The idea, that made me sick, was that if only UsAir or then United would go out of business that would heal the industry and airlines like SWA could continue to grow. Well, Pan Am went out of business as did Eastern and that didn't heal our industry. And what about the families at UsAir/United or whoever does anybody care about them?
I am sorry I started this thread. If you think I want SWA to fall on hard times you are mistaken. I hope/pray that you are able to hold on to your pay or even get a raise and if you do so happen to go on strike you will be welcomed on my jumpseat.
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