SmoothOnTop

I know, I do my own taxes every year and claim that small fee for my (can't think of a positive noun at this time - I mean have you not had a greivance dropped because the MEC head hunchos owed the company a few favors?).

Anyway, getting back to the thread:

Did the SX pilot group not know about the secret handshake deals that airlines like B6 do before going public???

CE750

I'm intrigued, such as?

Fishfreighter

I'm willing to wager that, given your attitude, your grievance got dropped because it had no merit. Period.

SmoothOnTop

The JB original pilots made a gentlepersons agreement (handshake) behind closed doors with management.

SmoothOnTop

I'm only willing to wager 1.95% of my pay, it's the pay to play fee for me.

I'm sorry for my attitude, the MEC's attorney assured me of a tight case, pm me if you need the details, Mr. Fish.

Back to the thread, please see new post:

http://www.airlinepilotforums.com/sh...ad.php?t=24084

B727DRVR

Hey JetPiedmont,

This is my first post on APC, and normally I'd say "that's crazy". But with all due respect to your obviously good and numerous posts on this board, I must disagree with you heart and soul.

I can tell you from experience as I have personally organized and served on the MEC of both IBT and ALPA airlines, and I must say the difference is glaring. We organized a 135 carrier with the IBT's '"flagship" for representing pilots, or so we thought...Local 747. To say that IBT 747 was a disorganized paper tiger would be an understatement. At the time, they had an office in IND with 3 full-time staff members... the rest were all pilots working hard and not always available.. This is why the pilots of UPS and ATA chose to decertify them and why now, the pilots of NetJets are doing the same..: http://www.njasap.com/history.html

The better representation that you speak of is by individual Locals at ABX and Netjets, respectively, with very little help from the Teamsters Airline Division or IBT National, according to my union friends there. Look on the web to see the airlines represented by IBT Local 747 and you will see that none of them have "industry leading" contracts. This is why Local 1108 (Netjets) and Local 1224 (ABX) have sought to remain independent from Local 747, despite several grab attempts by Local 747. IBT Local 747, to my knowledge, has never negotiated an "industry Standard" or "leading" contract.

Also, ever since the loss of their largest pilot group (ATA) to ALPA, the IBT has desperately tried to attain and hold on to pilot groups despite the wishes of their pilot groups. To prove this, they sabotaged Kitty Hawk Air Cargo's May 2000 93% write-in for ALPA by running to the AFL-CIO "claiming" that ALPA "raided" (stole) Kitty Hawk from them...With only ONE (1) vote for IBT. Kitty Hawk pilots received threatening calls at home from the IBT threatening us to not waste our votes on ALPA. But 93% of us, many ex-IBT Local 747 pilots who wanted no more of their substandard representation, ignored their threats and voted for ALPA anyway. We chose to gamble being unrepresented, rather than forced to join the IBT under duress. The IBT did follow through with their threats, and in my opinion, was dishonest with the AFL-CIO Kangarooo court. This resulted in the KHA pilots having to start an emergency independent union, leaving us basically unrepresented for 3 years. A history of this can be found at www.thebark.org/docs/shame.htm in the IBT Wall of Shame (see the Reply to Pizzaman Letter). Ask any UPS or ATA, and soon to be NetJets pilot, if they would go back to IBT representation, and I am pretty sure that the answer will be NO...

In 2003, we merged with ALPA and it was day and night. That very first day at the ALPA convention, we had input to cargo issues immediately and the ear of the ALPA president. Two months later, our reps were in D.C. meeting the heads of NTSB, FAA, and TSA. Pretty impressive for a small group of 150. ALPA representation forever changed the KHA pilots for the better.

Was 1.95% expensive? You bet, but money well spent when you consider the fabulous representation that we got for inputting so little. Nearly all pilots who had FAA issues or Medical issues got their medicals back (or never lost them and we didn't have the same fear of the FAA that we used to... That is because ALPA reps are out playing golf with FAA Medical and companies think twice about going up against ALPA Legal. I think that they played golf with them, too=). We actually felt like we were "airline pilots" and ALPA welcomed us with open arms.

Often times, many pilots, including ALPA members ,will complain about their dues going to the 400+ staff members and it just being an expensive magazine subscription, but if you look at what they have done since 1932, we have all benefited from their work. And when a company the size of Champion is having problems negotiating their contract, the ALPA tool kit is there... That is when all those top notch (and top paid) staffers come in handy. Professional lobbists, Audio/Visual, IT, Media, etc. All professionals. That is also how a company the size of Champion got a $2 million plus strike fund. They sure are great for our crewmembers, even after Chapter 11.

Has ALPA screwed up, occasionally now and a lot in the past? Certainly.... American, Eastern, overlooking RJ's for the B777's, etc. But the climate within ALPA has changed, and with that their attitudes towards representing ALL commercial pilots has too. Are there other good pilot union choices out there? Sure, most of the airlines in CAPA (Coalition of Independent Airline Pilot Unions - APA, SWAPA, NPA, IPA, FAPA) are all doing great jobs and have some steam on Capitol Hill. The Teamsters AIrline Division, strangely, dropped out of CAPA because they thought that they already had an office in D.C. and didn't need the help of all those other great unions.

So, in closing and with all due respect, I must say that I disagree with your asssertion that the Teamsters know how better to represent pilots, because they don't. Has ALPA screwed up? Yes! Do I understand why Horizon pilots went IBT for fear of favoritism for Alaska? Sure. Are there other pilot unions out there, including the independent ABX, NetJets, and World IBT Locals, that have equalled or surpassed ALPA carriers contracts? Absolutely, but it sure hasn't been through Teamsters Airline Division or IBT Local 747. As a trade unionist, I do wish that they would do a better job, now and in the future, of representing their pilot groups. But for the time being, they just don't do a good job representing pilots. They just don't get it... When I was a Teamster aircraft fueler,however, they provided me with excellent pay, benefits, and representation. That is why I sent my Teamster card as a pilot 12 years ago. But never again, unless I go back to fueling... They don't call it ALPA for nothing..

Sorry if I got long-winded, JetPiedmont, but I thought that you would want to hear the other side of the coin...

Respectfully,

B727DRVR

JetPiedmont

You bring up a lot of good points. I was comparing say Gemini to ATI, Spirit to USA3000 among others and saw a trend. Plus I flew for ABX in the mid 80's and was impressed with some of the provisions of their contract. Some of the ALPA contracts I've flown under since then have been lacking, of course.

BUT, you have seen much more of the IBT side of things than I, and if your experience has been otherwise, then it's likely that you are on sound footing. And ABX, as you say, is a bit of an exception anyway.

ALPA does seem out of touch, even isolated, from its membership, and seems to have been in "roll over mode" for too long. They are complacent and the "leadership" all the way down to the LEC level really wallows in the ALPA lifestyle of FPL, closed meetings, gala annual gatherings in all the winter warm spots and relationships with management that go beyond cozy.

Wonder why management considers itself a "ruling class"? Look at who represents us to them, as ALPA has evolved into a ruling class of its own.

And now we are going to enter into an unprecidented time for our industry and profession with spirialing fuel and reckless economic policies from Washington (and don't forget the 20+ Billion dollars in the Aviation "Trust Fund", funded by taxes paid by the airlines for improvements to the aviation infrastructure) and hope that ALPA rises to the occasion?

Just looking for representation with some backbone, B727DRVR.

SmoothOnTop

google/internet search the following set of keywords:

set 1) IBT corruption kickbacks

set 2) ALPA corruption kickbacks

I guess I've been a little too harsh on my 75+ year old airline pilot association union....

Spaceman Spliff

Your post was very well-written, very rational, and very classy. Please don't take my response personally.

My response to those who think ALPA is looking out for its membership's best interest: Age 65.

Santa

Don't go to the IBT, especially 747, because they REALLY suck!!!!! I wouldn't wish them on anyone.