RedeyeAV8r

Skyhigh

First point.........the subject on the original post on this thread was.......

"Whats being done about Airline Execs compensation"

It was a valid point and many of us replied to it.

Why should airline execs be compensated 300 to 400% above other employess? Rhetorical.......

Why should Airlines execs get millions in bonuses and other perks when they are asking workers to take MASSIVE paycuts and losses of benefits which were already earned? Again Rhetorical...............

Several of us posted our opinions to the above subject and for some reason you start in with the Rant that Airline (Legacy widebody Capts) all all over paid for doing nothing because of increased automation technology....................

In the same vain you complain about the working conditions in the industry.

This is probably the only point where you and I agree. The industry is is shambles and the careers of All of us (yes MD11 Capts too) are at risk!

What I don't understand is why one one hand I am an overpaid complainer but then you feel new guys should make more money.

I wish the pay and working conditions for everyone would improve. The only way for working conditions to improve is...........

1. Hard fought negotiations.
2. IMHO there also needs to be some legislative changes.
3. Companies need to make a profit, which is no small feat.

Go back to any of my previous posts.............You will be hard pressed to find me complaining about my job. I like my job and given the current state of the industry feel fortunate to be where I am, however, anyone who has been in this industry knows, that can change in a New York second.......as it did twice for me before at 2 other airlines.

The point is everyone in the industry is feeling the pain..............
USair and UAL pilots have given back in some cases 60% pay and benefits and lost hundreds of thousands in their personqal pensions.........and these were benefits already earned.

NWA and DAL are in the process..............

FedEx and UPS are in negotiations. Bothe of these companies are extremely profitable.......(and for the record I am gratefull for that!)

Why should we accept concessions when our companies are both making record profits.

Ask yourself, If WE accept concessions how will this help the industry?
By us Bloated widebody Capts (to coin your phrase) saying "We make enough and don't need any improvements" will this help the lower tier groups in their struggle for pay and benefit increases.

The bottom line is you get what you can negotiate..............and history has proven that...........as well as MGT will still come for you and ask for givebacks.

The profitable carriers need to raise the bar where and when they can.
Thats called defending the profession. The struggling carriers will be profitable again someday...............

I'm off the soap box...................................

Joeshmoe

Funny.....all I can envision is an airline CEO (take your pick of the communist scumbags) sitting in his fat leather chair, counting his money as its thrown on the floor, laughing hysterically at the very pilots that put him there and that he is screwing over, bickering amoungst themselves about who has the bigger plight. Folks, your cutting off your nose to spite your face. Pilots AREN'T the problem here and until THAT realization is met by all, NOTHING will change.

preludespeeder

Finally someone says it like it is, CEO and boards across the country have gotten everbody to believe that their pay is justified because they saved the company, well how freaking hard is to look at a paper or computer screen with numbers and say hey that one is higher then the other we need to change that so we can make money. The rest of the thinking is done by lawers who know the law and assistants that actually push the buttons on the computer screen or write the numbers down. Do not be fooled into thinking that CEO's do any real thinking, they are there for the camera more then anything.

I have one question for people out here, when did it become ok for the CEO to elect who is on the board of directors, while the board of directors decides how much the CEO gets paid. Do I smell a consipracy.

SkyHigh

Companies exist to the benefit of the stockholders and not for the employees. The stockholders must feel that the high wages that go to CEO's are warranted or else they would be voted out. We live in a capitalist society and not a communist one. An employees value is based on market demands. Unions can pollute the system and cause an imbalance that leads to a collapse for the company or industry. I saw a report last night on the 30,000 laid offs of Ford workers. The union had messed up efficiency so badly that it was estimated that it took three people to accomplish the job of one. How are we supposed to compete in a global market with that kind of monkey on our backs? Now we have open skys and we will see what the next act will be for the US airline industry. Unions are going away.

SkyHigh

cactusmike

No, SkyHight, you've got it wrong. The Boards and the CEOs are so far up each other's butts that there's no separating them. It is a self perpetuating circle jerk of Leasing companies and wall street cherry pickers that feed each other. Most major airlines are controlled by a very short list of financial backers that are only interested in siphoning as much out of the airline as they can. NWA was the best example of this when the most financially stable airline was raped by Checci and company and leveraged higher than J Lo's behind to go private, something that has led directly to their present CH 11.

At AWA we have had the Texas Pacific Group that has controlled us for the past 12 years, a group headed by David Bonderman who threw himself a 5 million dollar birthday party 2 years ago.

Joeshmoe

Gee I wonder how many line pilots were invited to that party.....unless it was to help out with catering.

Fly4Beer

This sounds much like communism. Is Skyhigh a card carrying communist? Unions will not go away as long as these execs continue to step all over us. What might go away is the union leadership and replace them with some new blood. Maybe large ALPA type representation might go away but SWAPA, APA, might lead to a JBPA and similiar at other airlines.

gnwac

Personally the pension and retirement plans are gone! Soon any and all money the company puts into your plan will soon too be a liability for them too. In the long term, your retirement will only be what you yourself save.

As for Legacy or LCC, by default, I blame both groups for their business model. Neither is perfect. The companies, however, are going to keep whip sawing and trying to cut costs and pilot salaries as compared to other airlines until WE AS A PILOT GROUP SAY ENOUGH IS ENOUGH! The question on the table is really, How low a dollar per hour rate are you willing to give up for your experience, time away from home and family for a JOB? Are we going to flying a 100 pax jet around for $80, 60, 40, 20 dollars an hour? What's your limit? What's your rock bottom?
I agree with "Redeyeav8r", until WE as a pilot group stand up and send a messg to the Board of Directors of these companies that we are not going to accept LESS any more, the blood bath will continue until they meet resistance.
The messg needs to be sent out to the new CFI's out there looking for that airline job, be prepared for a battle. It's not really like what the advertising Part 141 schools are telling you.
Gnwac

Eric Stratton

Does anyone know what happened in last years Disney case. The shareholders sued the board of director for agreeing to give David Ovits (the fired CEO of 15 months) around $140 million severence package. The board claimed that he deserved it. $140 million for 15 months of **** poor work and getting fired. I want this job.

ryane946

Every legacy carrier has cut pilot costs (Typically 30% since 9-11). However the pay for legacy airline pilots is still pretty darn good. I believe that all legacy carriers hit financial turmoil over the last four years (9-11, economic recession, drop in business travel, SARS, war in Iraq, high oil prices...), and I believe that the pay cuts were justified. Afterall, the airline industry went through its worst period ever, and all the legacy carriers survived. But everyone is right that with continued low cost competition, pilot salaries will continue to be under the eyes of cost cutting executives. And everyone is right that unless pilots stick together, it will continue to get worse.

So where do you draw the line?

1. Shifting of legacy flying to regional flying.
Regional airlines have gone from flying 19 and 30 seat turboprops, to flying 50 and 70 (And some 90 ) seat jets. A line must be drawn. So where? In my opinion, 70 seat jets are the max. Regionals can get away with paying these captains around $70 an hour (5 year CA). So you get your licenses, flight instruct for a year, join a regional (FO for 2 or so years), then make decent CA pay for 3 or so years. Get the experience, then go to a major, and make good pay. FAIR. Regionals need to be limited to 70 seats, and NewCO can not be allowed. Northwest pilots must defend this at all costs.

2. More legacy carrier paycuts.
All legacy pilots have taken paycuts, and most carriers are pretty similar in pay. Pilots gave their share, now pay should only increase. Delta pilots need to make sure that they do not allow the company to increase their temporary 15% paycut. This will further lower the legacy threshold, and possibly lead to another round of cuts.

3. Fight sabatoge.
The airline industry has a lot of capacity. We don't need anymore capacity. What we definately don't need is capacity from a foreign airline (Virgin USA). They will pay their pilots less like every low cost carrier, and the result can only be bad. This must be faught.

I believe these are the lines that pilots must stick together to hold. Does everyone think these lines are fair? Other ideas...
What does everyone think of this.