LifeNtheFstLne

Yes Karl, I do think that when 2 carriers merge that both belong to the same union that the seniority lists should be merged based on date of hire. Perhaps if you don't agree with that, you could be allowed to *gasp* have your own opinion about it too. I know it's EWR, but stop being a commie. During merger mania, I am surprised no one is screaming for a national ALPA seniority list, although it is far too late. How much easier would that make things for people? If you think that any merger would protect new hires no matter how they were combined, you are very mistaken. Last I checked, there is ZERO protection in such a scenario. Either way, I want to see some numbers on this. I hope you have better faith in our pilot group and leadership than I do to secure what you feel is fair terms in an integration when faced with UAL's also very divided group.


And Stratton, yes, teach me. I am still frantically searching for one insightful post out of your 708 to date. It's never too late. Please share your wisdom with all of us. You must be a M&A expert in your free time.


"Fear leads to anger. Anger leads to hate. And hate leads to suffering."

jsled

Sheesh! You would think UAL was gasping it's last breath. UAL just posted a $403M net profit for 2007 and is also hiring in spite of an inept management team. No doubt the fact that CAL has 3 year Captains and a/c orders will play favorably in the ALPA merger process. But so will UAL's 117 widebodies to CAL's 46 widebodies. Good luck to all.

Superpilot92

DOH is not fair and is another fine idea of the "all about me" era. That idea would screw over 1400+ of YOUR newhire coworkers.

LifeNtheFstLne

Don't take it too personally. There is A LOT of KoolAid at CAL. I still thought the UAL numbers were impressive. And yeah, I do work at CAL. Perhaps what we can all agree on will result with minimal job loss and maximum riches for the shareholders. That is of course what's most important!

Andy

Slotting by relative seniority would be fair. I don't think that DOH would be the best way to merge the lists, should a merger come to pass.
... this comes from a UAL 767 FO, bottom of the systemwide 767 FO list, hired in June 2000. Approximately 600 from the bottom of an 8000 pilot list. I would end up being slotted behind 90% of CAL pilots, some probably not off of probation yet. But it would be fairer than DOH.

In reality, I'd probably be slotted a bit higher than relative seniority. I'd probably be looking at a very long furlough if a merger happened. So, at least I've got that going for me.
If it went DOH, I almost certainly wouldn't be furloughed. No, I don't consider DOH to be fair.

Andy

Evil, yes. Inept, no. Much better now that Mad Dog/ALPA isn't involved in the CEO hiring process. His choice, Goodwin, was a disaster for the company.

I think that UAL management has positioned the company to be able to withstand the coming downturn much better than CAL and others who are ordering new aircraft. The projected demand increase is rapidly vaporizing.

And I give management kudos for the low monthly guarantee (65) vs max hours (89/95) in the current contract. It will allow them to cut block hours by at least 20% without having to contemplate a pilot furlough because it will reduce pilot salaries by an equal amount. There is a great deal of potential for the reserve lines to go senior. In my book, management was brilliant in getting that wide a gap between max and guarantee.
Just because ALPA did a crappy job negotiating 2003 does not mean that UAL management is inept.

jsled

Andy,
Certainly entitled to your opinion. Read the wall street journal this morning and see what they say. Sure UAL did good on the contracts. Not too hard when you have the hammer. But look at the rest. AMR and UAL have virtually the same CASM yet UAL enjoys a $1 Billon (with a B) annual labor cost advantage. Is that good management? Look at UAL's profit margin compared to the others in spite of the tremendous labor cost advantage. Sorry, I and wall street give them a D-. Which is why every analyst you can quote gives the reins to CAL management when/if this deal is done. I sure hope so.

Andy

How about a link?
Full year profits look similar; AMR (larger than UAL) reported $504M net profit.

What's the CASM breakdown? Labor is certainly one metric, but again, UAL is smaller than AMR, so labor costs should be smaller all things being equal.

I haven't bothered to do a side by side comparison of UAL and AMR, so I can't compare and contrast them. There are many factors that go into the comparison, but Wall Street has a different objective than airline employees. I don't think that you'll find much concern among investors for the pilots. Scratch much; make that any.
I can guess the metrics that the WSJ used; does UAL's management get a poorer rating for not hedging as much fuel as AMR? I wouldn't be hedging with oil above $80/bbl. I don't see current fuel prices holding.

dojetdriver

I though that not ALL of CAL's furlough's were able to flow down. Is that not the case?

Superpilot92

I dont know if some were not allowed to flow down or not but i do know some chose not to flow down and just take the furlough. I talked with one guy that said if they took the furlough, when they came back they were still on whatever payscale they were on when they flowed to XJT. IF they didnt flowback then their longevity kept ticking throughout the furlough. Dont know if its true just what i heard on a jumpseat from a CAL guy. I take no credibility for that