ultradrvr

Speed....Right on brawther!!! Working for Virgin as opposed to sitting on my furloughed cabbose might be a way to go. (making some money vs making my wife work double time to make up for my career choice) Hell who knows getting in on the ground floor might pay off in the long run. If things dont pan out a guy can always tell Virgin to go pound sand. Just a thought. Hey speed I had a 9 capt tell me he would not give up open flying for me to come back because he has 1 kid in college. Gee I drive a semi part time and do some pilot service around DSM and my wife and I seem to find a way to send our kid to college....whats he doing with his money???? Thats it, I'm taking him off my Christmas Card list.

RedeyeAV8r

[QUOTE=OldAg84]I just read The marketplace is setting the price- and that includes on the supply side. The industry is overcapacity in a lot of respects, clearly Virgin America won't help that aspect. But go ahead and have your carrier charge 50% more for a ticket and see where that gets you.
[QUOTE]

I deadhead a lot on most all of the legacy carriers, (Platimum Elite on 2 legacy carries and 1 smaller carrier) I use Southwest too on occasion.
When I here there is too much capacity in the industry, I cringe. Every flight I deadhead on is Full ........especailly international........but the domestic flights are crammed full too. This year almost all carriers set load factor records, most are in the 80-85%. So capacity isn't the problem...............Yield is the problem. Price a ticket for what it costs..............

I am tired of hearing how 911 caused all these problems (True 911 severly affected the industry for that quarter and the next). But the traveling public has put 911 behind them as more people are flying now in the US than ever before.

When I flew for the PAX carriers, if we had 55% load factor we made money..........and there was Low cost competition back then too.........Remeber NY AIR, Remember Peoples Express remember the Eastern BK which sold tickets from LGA to MIA for $99, Continental went into BK and was selling cheap seats, America west followed and Southwest was growing Big out west. Then Value jet popped up on the EAST. Reno Air on the westcoast, Western Pacific, and Frontier....................................LCC are not new to the industry.

Managament needs to manage,,,,,,,,,,,,,,Airline mangers today seem to take the approach that........"We are losing $20 Million a month so if we get $30 Million a month in Labor concessions we will net a $25 million dollar/ month profit.........after we take our 5 million a month in Bonuses and perks.

Capacity has already shrunk considerably..............with the substantial increase in Code sharing.....Charge a fair price for your product and people will pay........they will have no choice.

OldAg84

Redeye- I stand corrected- you are right, yield is the key. Does anyone know if yields have gotten better in markets previously served by now defunct carriers? How much does reducing capacity on routes actually help yields?

crewdawg52

[QUOTE=OldAg84]Crisp

I read these boards with great interest and some sadness. The airline industry is just the latest industry to be hosed by "management". I could tell stories, but it's an airline board. There has to been some truth that SW and JetBlue are succeeding part because the have decent labor/management relations. I just about blew my morning coffee through my nose when I read the Delta management defending their management compensation.


JB will be loosing $ for along time now and SW is only making $ because of the fuel hedging. When that ends......guess what!

I

B757200ER

CrewDawg---

That won't end until 2009. Who knows what fuel will be at by then.

crewdawg52

My crystal ball tells me.............No idea.

B757200ER

Hard to beat SWA, is'nt it? Good management, good employees. What a concept.

Vagabond Pilot

It's called branding and I bet this investment company paid a whole bunch to use the Virgin logo which, yes, has been very successful outside the US.
Part of the problem with the US is that it seems to think that things happen in isolation and they know all the answers. I hate to tell you but as an outsourced American pilot who has lived and worked outside the US extensively, the US airline industry is the laughing stock of the world right now. While most of you quibble about this and that, others elsewhere are streaking ahead.
I have worked and lived on both sides of the pond and more than a decade ago made the decision to call the US home - which it still is to this day. The sad part is that I hardly spend any time here because all the decent jobs are overseas.
Frankly, there's far too much inbickering and that is one of the reasons why the industry is where it is today. Nobody trusts anyone anymore. And where else in the world are corporate entities allowed to carry on trading while in bankruptcy for years. All of these factors directly or indirectly affect the once-proud profession.
I have had more layoffs and furloughs than hot dinners, so I speak with a certain amount of authority on the subject. It is virtually impossible to choose a "right" career airline anymore. I know of no one who has been with the same airline for more than 15 years! Now I wonder why that is!
I agree with some of the posters here and can understand why Pilots Wife feels the way she does. You have to be in her shoes to fully understand where she is coming from. Politics? How about survival? I've been there, so I can relate.
As for Fred Reid and Don Carty, I was dismayed to hear that they are on the VA board, especially Carty. I personally think that that is a bad move and may come back to bite them. Neither of these two "gentlemen" have done any favors to their previous companies, but I guess that's what CEOs are all about.
Wouldn't it be refreshing to have a company that actually valuesits employees and is able to work in harmony and hence prosper? Surely, that is a win-win situation. History has proven that to be the case. Certainly one of the reasons why SWA is so successful and stands so tall. The Virgin Group of companies is renowned for looking after its employees and a fun place to work. This brings out the best in people and makes for a successful company.
I have read RB's autobiography in detail and also another publication in how he does business and why he is so successful. Yes, the pay may be low but that's the case with ALL new start-ups. As you all know, if you get in on the ground floor, you have the advantage of growing with the new company and you don't have to worry so much about seniority and starting over if you are in the first 100 or so pilots. The flip side is will it be around in 3, 5 or 10 years time?
I went through the exact same process with my last US start-up and it was the best job I had ever had - for 3 years. Then the company shut their doors, not because of high fuel prices or the economy but because of the CEO's ego. I sacrificed a lot to get that job (including a substantial paycut but better QOL).
I find it hard when people critisize that pilots would want to work for Virgin or, indeed, any other LCC. For a furloughed or out-of-work pilot, what would you suggest? There is no prestige involved anymore so what difference does it really make which outfit you work for, they all seem to be the same or heading in the same direction. Some senior captains at the legacy airlines have no concept about this because they have never experienced it or maybe just once in their career. Folks have different considerations and expectations. They will do whatever is best for them and their families. And as my old CEO once told me, 80% of something is better than 100% of nothing. In the end we got the 100% of nothing deal and got hosed, so I'm no lover of management!
So, in final thought, I would say this: the idea sounds great and I can see why people would clammer to have VA in their backyard. Yet, is now the best time to have an airline like this in the US? They will have to pull all the rabbits out of the hat to make it work because the American market is the toughest nut to crack in the world, just like getting a decent pilot job here is fast becoming a myth! Maybe Branson has the business acumen and street smarts to make it work, only time will tell. Good luck to them and all those that choose this path, you might just need it!

Ganbare

Pay should also be based upon a free market economy. The only reason that I can see why pilots expect such high salaries is because of the fat paycheck tradition that the airlines have. Now that supply and demand is having an effect upon pilot pay it is relaxing to a more competitive level. The only reason that I can see for returning to regulation is to preserve the status quo. As a whole the concept is totally un-American. Perhaps the Russians should return to communism?

To Skyhigh:

Was my first reaction after reading your post with a little bit of added in too. Would I be right in assuming you in fact are not a pilot? I'm quite sure that if you were an airline pilot by trade your post would be situated 180 degrees. Despite being treated as bus drivers lately airline pilots don't drive buses. We fly 400,000 pound machines through the air through all types of weather, during the day, at night and at all hours of the day and night. We are highly trained professionals who have the lives of hundreds of people in our hands at any time while working. Bottom line: We should be paid as such and the drive to the wage basement must stop.

So the question remains, why are wages declining? Because the customer, any customer, will use price to decide which ticket to buy. The LLCs have stepped in to provide the lowest priced tickets, and how do they do this? They pay lower salaries than the major airlines, they don't provide retirement plans, they require pilots to pay a larger share of health care, they require the pilots to work longer hours on more days of the month...the list goes on and on. And how about those low priced tickets? You can fly on jetBlue coast to coast for $200. The flight takes 5 hours, can you honestly say you would spend less than that on gas, hotels (it'll take you 3 days) and food if you drove? My Goodness, what are those low cost tickets really costing the industry? Don't you think the price of tickets should be relative to the cost and frustration of driving yourself over the same distance?

I don't discount the need to eliminate some of the waste, fraud and abuse in the industry. Of course that means those bloated, greedy airline executives should follow suit. Why should we give up our pensions while those scumbags set aside money for themselves as a "contingency fund" should they lose their positions? I'm not spouting conspiracy here, it really happens. Delta Airlines executives did in fact set aside millions for themselves should a merger occur and they lose their jobs. Oh yes, they also have guaranteed pensions too. This while asking for pay cuts from pilots and demanding their pensions are terminated.

So, ticket prices must rise. Airline executives don't get special perks that the other employees don't. The result is air travel that is sanely priced and pilots get a fair wage. Any questions?

Respectfully,

aspiring_pilot

[QUOTE=RedeyeAV8r][QUOTE=OldAg84]I just read The marketplace is setting the price- and that includes on the supply side. The industry is overcapacity in a lot of respects, clearly Virgin America won't help that aspect. But go ahead and have your carrier charge 50% more for a ticket and see where that gets you.

remember when gas was under a buck a gallon? (spare me on fuel hedges)