SkyHigh

In America we believe in capitalism and free trade. The intent of regulation was purely to protect the conduits of business. Regulation was abolished since it only protected a gluttonous system that stunted our GNP through huge ticket prices. Since then free trade has worked to reduce ticket prices and to increase the variety and frequency of flights nationwide. There is no way the government would reinstall regulation now just to protect the fat paycheck tradition in the airlines. The price of a ticket from LAX to NYC would jump to $2500 in coach or more. The public wouldn't stand for it either. That genie is out of the bottle.

SKyHigh

Skyone

Gosh, it seems all of you know what the payrates are already. Of course my cousins girlfriend's next door neighbor's uncle has it by a good authority that Virgin will pay their copilots higher than JB's captains. And dittidano you better check your facts about foreign ownership and the current laws, including financing. Hey guys, let's get some straight facts before throwing the whold operation under the bus. Jeez;
S1

dittidano

Skyone, You are right. I should have looked into it a little more before running my mouth. After doing a little research; it sounds like that Virgin America and Virgin Atlantic are seperate companies'. It also sounds like it is owned by an american investing group( I forgot the name of the group) and they are paying Sir Richard Branson to use the Virgin icon. As for the pay, I dont really know how much the pilots will make; i based my opinion on what others have been saying. I apologize, i should have done my homework before bashing VA.

Dittidano

Eric Stratton

I'm sure this investment group went to Sir Dick and asked to use the Virgin brand name. give me a break. Sir Dick was talking about running an airline in the US years ago and was bitter that he couldn't be the major player. I've seen him on TV talking about this and that he wants the USA to change their laws to allow it. I was talking to someone who was hired there and he said that in the interview he was told that they wanted to tie virgin atlantic, blue, and america all together.

Who ever said that you can't speculate on what the pay will be, please name one startup airline that paid the same as the majors. He will pay less and as the owner of men's warehouse says "I guarantee it"

R1830toIAE2500

From Issues in Science and Technology online, Winter 1999
By; John R. Meyer and Thomas R. Menzies

"The airline industry was originally regulated out of concern that carriers, left to their own devices, would compete so intensely that they would set fares too low to generate the profits needed to reinvest in new equipment and other capital. It was feared that this self-destructive behavior would, in turn, lead to the degradation of safety and service, ultimately leading to either an erosion of service in some markets or dominance by one or two surviving carriers"

Sounds like they hit the nail on the head in 1938, when the CAB was formed.

From the United States of America, Department of Transportation, Bureau of Statistics, Air Carrier Profile.
The Average Passenger Revenue per Passenger Mile for Domestic/Scheduled/Major airlines;
1960....$6.09/Pax mile
1970....$6.00/Pax mile
1980....11.49/ (First post deregulation figures available)
1990....13.43/Pax mile
1994....13.12/Pax mile
1995....13.48/Pax mile
1996....13.76/Pax mile
1997....13.97/Pax mile
1998....14.08/Pax mile
1999....13.72/Pax mile
2000....14.56/Pax mile
2001....13.25/Pax mile
2002....12.00/Pax mile(R)
2003....12.22/Pax mile (Last year figures available)

Adjusted for inflation,2003's $12.22 equates to $1.94 1960 dollars.
Conversely, the $6.09 in 1960 dollars converts to $37.86 in 2003 dollars.

Another list...Domestic/Scheduled/Major Airlines. Average Passenger Fare
YEAR....ACTUAL FARE.....(FARE converted to 2003 $)
1960....$30.01..............($186.55)
1970....$40.65..............($192.77)
1980....$84.60..............($188.91, First post deregulation data available)
1990....$107.86............($151.85)
1994....$103.21............($128.14)
1995....$106.66............($128.78)
1996....$110.37............($129.78)
1997....$114.10............($130.81)
1998....$114.08............($128.78)
1999....$114.99............($127.00)
2000....$121.27............($129.58)
2001....$111.60............($115.95)
2002....$101.94(R)........($104.26)
2003....$102.90............($102.90)

2003's average fare of $102.90 would equate to $16.30 in 1960.


When the airlines operated under the oversight of the Civil Aeronautics Board, not only was their route structure controlled by the CAB, but also the fare they were allowed to charge. As a result, the airlines were allowed to make a profit, something few airlines can claim today.

On many threads within this Forum, pilots bemoan the fact that we seem to be in a race to the bottom in regards to pilot compensation. Unfortunately, I see no other option available to the airlines if deregulation remains in effect.

The regulated era allowed the Pan Am's, TWA's, American"s, Delta's, Eastern's, Continental's, Western's, National's, Braniff's, Alegheny's, Piedmont's and United's to be built into thriving companies within a financially secure industry. Other than Southwest, I see no such success stories in the deregulated era.

aspiring_pilot

is using the virgin name really going to help them out that much?

captain_drew

REALLY sneaky .. if the following article is any clue.
How does reading the article below make CA taxpayers feel?
THIS is REALLY OBSCENE !!

Virgin America snags $10M for training
Eric Young

Startup airline Virgin America Inc. was awarded $10 million in state funds to help train pilots, stewardesses and other employees.

The Burlingame-based airline said Wednesday that it would use the money to train 1,200 new employees once it begins hiring. The new, low-cost domestic airline is seeking approvals from the U.S. Department of Transportation and Federal Aviation Administration before it begins selling tickets and carrying passengers.

A spokeswoman said the new airline does not know when the federal application process will conclude or when Virgin America will start picking employees. But Virgin America spokeswoman Stacy Geagan said the money would help train pilots, flight attendants and other employees who deal with the public.

The state money comes from the California Labor and Workforce Development's Employment Training Panel. The program is funded by the Employment Training Tax paid by California employers and targets businesses that the state says are threatened by out-of-state and international competition.

When plans for Virgin America were first announced in 2003, several states vied to be the new airline's headquarters. The Bay Area won in part because of the incentive package offered by local officials and the state of California. The training funds were a major component of those incentives. Another benefit was a marketing campaign that San Francisco International Airport will develop for Virgin America.
© 2005 American City Business Journals Inc.

FlyBoys Wife

I live in CA, am a HIGH tax paying resident and frankly, I welcome Virgin America! Not only is it creating job opportunities but it's also bringing the Aviation industry to the West Coast and an attractive city, boosting our state economy AND creating even more jobs for pilots young and old (although from what I've read, the entry requirements will be high so junior guys like my husband won't be benefitting yet for some time). Virgin does things right, as has been evident by their parent company, and their fresh attitude (take a look at their corporate team on their website; young, innovative and inspiring team members as opposed to the typically corrupt CEO of Corporate America - United anyone??). I look forward to seeing their advertising campaigns, AND to being a passenger with them. If part of my tax dollar goes toward improving the state economy, as well as helping to grow a fresh faced company, I say "no problem". I'd rather my dollar goes there than into corrupt "old boys network" pockets!

max767capt

Young fresh faced CEO-- my other end. Fred Reid was the worst CEO we ever had at DAL and that includes such august figures as Ron Allen and the wonderful LEO Mullen

captain_drew

The lady talks just like a whacko, San Francisco Socialist, eh?

She never had an Econ 101 class in her life, unless, perhaps at UC Berkeley, taught by a Marxist prof from the Soviet Union.

I have the same objection to Virgin getting my hard earned tax money as I do with the taxpayers subsiding Billionaire professional sports team owners in building their stadiums. It is NOT the right thing to do.

None of the good things she claims or thinks will happen. Introduction of a new low cost carrier will put more pressure on other carriers and further drag the piloting profession down with super low wages for doing one of the most demanding jobs there ever was. People outside the profession think we are bus drivers, with little to no training or experience required .. and anyone who takes a job like this has no self respect or esteem for the profession.