ALPA decertification at US Airways
11-25-2007, 12:12 PM
#101
Ben Salley
Joined APC: Feb 2006
Position: Left
Posts: 924
I agree with them 100%. Greed has forced us, the American worker, to accept ridiculous concessions to save jobs that aren't really worth having. The Nicholau award is a slap in the face to every professional who has ever worked to help their company. The America West pilot group is irrelevant to the fact that ALPA has abandoned AAA. I think management will find it easier to keep the two pilot groups separate in hopes of whipsaw advantages than try to implement an award that even Doug Parker acknowledged as a windfall. The west guys will still enjoy the great airline they had before the merger, and the east guys can enjoy what they had. All the east guys need to do is keep the award idle until the next merger. Problem solved.
11-25-2007, 12:31 PM
#102
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: May 2007
Posts: 593
You wouldn't value a Peso and a Euro equally just because they were minted on the same day would you?
11-25-2007, 12:44 PM
#104
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Joined APC: May 2007
Posts: 593
[quote=Typhoonpilot;268489]
That sounds so good when somebody who doesn't have a clue about the demographics of the pilot group reads it. It also doesn't take into account the fences that the AAA plan had.
Can you tell me which prior integrations put a value on the age of the pilots in each group?
If the AWA plan had included a component where a specific pilot maintained his relative position based on attrition at his previous expectation then it would have been fair.
Had the AAA MEC plan included a componenet where each pilot maintained his realtive position and bidding rights, with base fences, that would have been fair. As it was, the AAA plan called for the effective stapling of a pilot group with similar aircraft (with the exception of a small number of wide bodied aircraft), a better contract, better pay rates and a stronger company that had not entered into its second bankruptcy in two years.
DOH or LOS with fences were the best answer.
IMHO, relative position with fences is the best answer in this case.
At the end of the day, neither the arbitrator that AAA agreed to, nor either of the pilot nuetrals who participated in this arbitration came to the conclusion that LOS was the best form of integration. After hearing the evidence and arguments of both AAA and AWA, they correctly came to the conclusion that relative position for the seat you hold is the best integration methodology in this case.
That's not to say that relative position is always the best methodolgy, or that in some integrations DOH or LOS might not be the best methodolgy, but in this integration it is.
That sounds so good when somebody who doesn't have a clue about the demographics of the pilot group reads it. It also doesn't take into account the fences that the AAA plan had.
Can you tell me which prior integrations put a value on the age of the pilots in each group?
If the AWA plan had included a component where a specific pilot maintained his relative position based on attrition at his previous expectation then it would have been fair.
Had the AAA MEC plan included a componenet where each pilot maintained his realtive position and bidding rights, with base fences, that would have been fair. As it was, the AAA plan called for the effective stapling of a pilot group with similar aircraft (with the exception of a small number of wide bodied aircraft), a better contract, better pay rates and a stronger company that had not entered into its second bankruptcy in two years.
DOH or LOS with fences were the best answer.
IMHO, relative position with fences is the best answer in this case.
At the end of the day, neither the arbitrator that AAA agreed to, nor either of the pilot nuetrals who participated in this arbitration came to the conclusion that LOS was the best form of integration. After hearing the evidence and arguments of both AAA and AWA, they correctly came to the conclusion that relative position for the seat you hold is the best integration methodology in this case.
That's not to say that relative position is always the best methodolgy, or that in some integrations DOH or LOS might not be the best methodolgy, but in this integration it is.
Last edited by Reroute; 11-25-2007 at 09:35 PM.
11-25-2007, 12:57 PM
#105
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: May 2007
Posts: 593
[quote=flybywire44;268508]There is a large number of US Air east pilots who would rather see US Air out of business than work under the contract ALPA is pushing for.
They've had that opportunity in the past numerous times and they've always voted to keep their jobs and save their airline and there is nothing necessarily wrong with that.
They've literally been dragged through the dirt over the years and they don't have much to lose. The pilot group as a whole will give larger dues to fund the union and support their seniority numbers.
They'll have to give significantly more, but they'll still be bound by the Nicolau award. An award they agreed to be bound by. Changing representation wont change the award. USAPA will have to assume all the obligations, including the obligation to fairly represent the west and the east. That means the east can't reorder the seniority list to their liking. That would be a breach of USAPA's duty of fair representation.
ALPA should wake up and treat these guys with some respect.
ALPA has treated these guys with respect, they've been treated fairly and been given the same level of support any other pilot group would receive in similar circumstances. You certainly aren't suggesting that they be treated better than the AWA pilots and that the AWA pilots should sacrifice their careers because the AAA pilots have had it rough these last few years are you? If AAA mucked up their arguments before the arbitrator, or chose a poor strategy in this integration, by choosing arbitration over negotiation, that's not ALPA's fault.
They've had that opportunity in the past numerous times and they've always voted to keep their jobs and save their airline and there is nothing necessarily wrong with that.
They've literally been dragged through the dirt over the years and they don't have much to lose. The pilot group as a whole will give larger dues to fund the union and support their seniority numbers.
They'll have to give significantly more, but they'll still be bound by the Nicolau award. An award they agreed to be bound by. Changing representation wont change the award. USAPA will have to assume all the obligations, including the obligation to fairly represent the west and the east. That means the east can't reorder the seniority list to their liking. That would be a breach of USAPA's duty of fair representation.
ALPA should wake up and treat these guys with some respect.
ALPA has treated these guys with respect, they've been treated fairly and been given the same level of support any other pilot group would receive in similar circumstances. You certainly aren't suggesting that they be treated better than the AWA pilots and that the AWA pilots should sacrifice their careers because the AAA pilots have had it rough these last few years are you? If AAA mucked up their arguments before the arbitrator, or chose a poor strategy in this integration, by choosing arbitration over negotiation, that's not ALPA's fault.
11-25-2007, 01:02 PM
#106
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Joined APC: May 2007
Posts: 593
11-25-2007, 02:15 PM
#107
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jul 2005
Position: recalled until the next round of right sizing to optimise synergies
Posts: 199
[QUOTE=Reroute;268525]
So relative is good for this one but not others.
Let me guess, if the west had merged with lets say Virgin, or maybe Skybus, then I guess you would not want relative seniority at all, is that correct?
So relative is good for this one but not others.
Let me guess, if the west had merged with lets say Virgin, or maybe Skybus, then I guess you would not want relative seniority at all, is that correct?
11-25-2007, 02:17 PM
#108
Ben Salley
Joined APC: Feb 2006
Position: Left
Posts: 924
11-25-2007, 05:07 PM
#109
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Sep 2006
Position: SWA F/O
Posts: 145
Air California and AA did the whole merge of senority pretty well back in the early 90's(?)
I think the tag line was, "if you want to ride with the posse, you'd better bring a horse."
Meaning, if you brought a left seat job to the "party," that is what you would keep.
The same is true of everything else. If you came into the merger as a junior FO (from the east), even though you were hired in the eightes, a junior FO you remain. The system, as cruel as it is to these pilots, works.
Not saying its perfect, but its not far off.
I think the tag line was, "if you want to ride with the posse, you'd better bring a horse."
Meaning, if you brought a left seat job to the "party," that is what you would keep.
The same is true of everything else. If you came into the merger as a junior FO (from the east), even though you were hired in the eightes, a junior FO you remain. The system, as cruel as it is to these pilots, works.
Not saying its perfect, but its not far off.
11-25-2007, 09:32 PM
#110
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: May 2007
Posts: 593
[quote=fr8tmastr;268573]
That's right relative seniority is not always the right answer and neither is DOH or LOS. Each integration has to balance its own unique set of equities.
I have no idea what would be fair with Virgin or Skybus, it's really not relevant. We're talking about AAA and AWA and what each pilot brought to the dance.
I have no idea what would be fair with Virgin or Skybus, it's really not relevant. We're talking about AAA and AWA and what each pilot brought to the dance.
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