Is there a safe future for Pilots? My Son's Question
10-06-2007, 06:25 PM
#21
Line Holder
Joined APC: Sep 2007
Posts: 81
Never said anyone was falling out of the sky! If you comment do so wisely! As for the aircraft piloted by 9 month captains, hmmm lets see crj 200, crj 700, your little bird. I figure from your comments you must be a low time guy. Glad you don't have a record with the FAA...I hope!
10-06-2007, 06:33 PM
#22
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Nov 2005
Position: UPS 757/767 Capt ONT
Posts: 4,357
"Are the low-time pilots of today any more dangerous than the low-time pilots of the 60s and 70s at the majors?"
A few things different between then and now.
A) They used real airplanes, not sims. You had to prove yourself in the real thing. Not a big computer game that only resembles the real thing.
B) Most guys came out of college to the airlines. At least they had the maturity of a degree. No degree requirement for the regionals today. How many 20 year olds went to the airlines back then? I bet not many.
C) Most guys went to the F/E panel. It was a great way to learn the ropes and how things work before moving to the right seat.
D) The standards were higher. Airline training was a much more serious endevor than it is today. I've seen the relaxation in standards even in the last 20 years with what expected of you in airline training. I'd imagine 40 years ago it was even more stringent.
A few things different between then and now.
A) They used real airplanes, not sims. You had to prove yourself in the real thing. Not a big computer game that only resembles the real thing.
B) Most guys came out of college to the airlines. At least they had the maturity of a degree. No degree requirement for the regionals today. How many 20 year olds went to the airlines back then? I bet not many.
C) Most guys went to the F/E panel. It was a great way to learn the ropes and how things work before moving to the right seat.
D) The standards were higher. Airline training was a much more serious endevor than it is today. I've seen the relaxation in standards even in the last 20 years with what expected of you in airline training. I'd imagine 40 years ago it was even more stringent.
10-06-2007, 06:37 PM
#23
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Joined APC: Dec 2006
Position: CRJ CA
Posts: 66
From what I understand, there are still minimums to be met before upgrading to CA. It's my understanding that they have to have several thousand hours before upgrading, thus those that are doing it quickly aren't the guys who got hired with 600 hours, and a commercial.
10-06-2007, 06:42 PM
#24
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Joined APC: Sep 2007
Posts: 81
From what I understand, there are still minimums to be met before upgrading to CA. It's my understanding that they have to have several thousand hours before upgrading, thus those that are doing it quickly aren't the guys who got hired with 600 hours, and a commercial.
I wish that was true but commuters like Trans States and Go Jet are sending guys into the left seat with under 2k hours! Just think our families could be on one of those planes! I tell my loved ones to stay away from commuters if they can, especially with all the majors hiring the high time guys from the commuters.
10-06-2007, 06:43 PM
#25
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Joined APC: Sep 2007
Posts: 81
"Are the low-time pilots of today any more dangerous than the low-time pilots of the 60s and 70s at the majors?"
A few things different between then and now.
A) They used real airplanes, not sims. You had to prove yourself in the real thing. Not a big computer game that only resembles the real thing.
B) Most guys came out of college to the airlines. At least they had the maturity of a degree. No degree requirement for the regionals today. How many 20 year olds went to the airlines back then? I bet not many.
C) Most guys went to the F/E panel. It was a great way to learn the ropes and how things work before moving to the right seat.
D) The standards were higher. Airline training was a much more serious endevor than it is today. I've seen the relaxation in standards even in the last 20 years with what expected of you in airline training. I'd imagine 40 years ago it was even more stringent.
A few things different between then and now.
A) They used real airplanes, not sims. You had to prove yourself in the real thing. Not a big computer game that only resembles the real thing.
B) Most guys came out of college to the airlines. At least they had the maturity of a degree. No degree requirement for the regionals today. How many 20 year olds went to the airlines back then? I bet not many.
C) Most guys went to the F/E panel. It was a great way to learn the ropes and how things work before moving to the right seat.
D) The standards were higher. Airline training was a much more serious endevor than it is today. I've seen the relaxation in standards even in the last 20 years with what expected of you in airline training. I'd imagine 40 years ago it was even more stringent.
Well put my friend!
10-06-2007, 06:55 PM
#26
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Thread Starter
Joined APC: Aug 2007
Posts: 58
SWAPA was one of my last choices, I dont need that kind of attention thats for sure!!!
Well, hes wanted to be a SWA Pilot, he was brought up flying on SWA all the time. But really, he will do anything to fly and fly anywhere for that matter. Sure, almost every father wants his son to follow in his footsteps and carry on the legacy, especially in a prestigious (maybe too strong a word) job like a Pilot or Doctor. It be great if he'd make an attempt for SWA, he has sure got a better chance than a 25 year old kid, with no references let alone references internally of a similar position signing up for the same job with the same licenses. By the way, Im signing him up for a local ground school here this summer, see if he likes.
Much different in a video came than when you have 2000ft of air below you making a short final. We will see how he does
We shall see...
Thanks for the replies...
Last edited by KW10001; 10-06-2007 at 07:01 PM.
10-06-2007, 07:17 PM
#27
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jun 2005
Position: Retired
Posts: 2,934
I could have been hired a year and a half ago, but decided to instruct longer and it was the best choice I could make. I'd still be instructing but quite frankly it didn't pay the bills.
A large number of friends have the time and seniority to upgrade right now but aren't. Why? The overwhelming answer is to see another winter and learn. I think it's incredibly smart and shows how serious they are about doing a good job. Will the upgrade continue to be so low? Doubtful. TSA lowered their published mins to ATP mainly to slow the FO attrition. Unless the majors start hiring like gangbusters it will go back up. We're not all sitting up there to look cool. A vast majority of us are absorbing everything we can so we're safe captains down the road.
A large number of friends have the time and seniority to upgrade right now but aren't. Why? The overwhelming answer is to see another winter and learn. I think it's incredibly smart and shows how serious they are about doing a good job. Will the upgrade continue to be so low? Doubtful. TSA lowered their published mins to ATP mainly to slow the FO attrition. Unless the majors start hiring like gangbusters it will go back up. We're not all sitting up there to look cool. A vast majority of us are absorbing everything we can so we're safe captains down the road.
10-06-2007, 07:21 PM
#28
Day puke
Joined APC: Feb 2006
Position: Out.
Posts: 3,865
Have you ever:
Had a HUMAN telephone operator ask you, "Number please?"
Had an elevator operator ask, "What floor?"
Seen a railroad a Caboose?
Flown with a Flight enginer? A NAVIGATOR?
All of those are obsolete (true, there are still FEs, but they are a dying breed). Autoland has been around since the late '70s. I can hear 99% of you saying, "My plane doesn't have autoland that proves we need pilots."
When fully autonomous military aircraft are already flying and spacecraft can be flown to the outer planets from Houston, the potential to make cockpit crew redundant can be seen. Certainly, it could be argued that the FO isn't really required on an RJ. (A regional check airman once commented to me, "taking up a new hire FO on the first IOE flight is like flying single pilot.") B1900s and Metros can be flown single pilot (though not under 121). The truth is airlines need FOs (and evetually pilots) because the FAA regs SAY SO! Until the regs change, there is no reason to develope pilotless transport aircraft.
Perhaps the Feds, the public, and the unions will prevent a change to the regs, but if a change ever comes, we are done. Actually, I should say those who can only fly computerised planes will be done... those of us who can hand fly steam gauges will still be employed albeit flying 50 year old caravans.
Had a HUMAN telephone operator ask you, "Number please?"
Had an elevator operator ask, "What floor?"
Seen a railroad a Caboose?
Flown with a Flight enginer? A NAVIGATOR?
All of those are obsolete (true, there are still FEs, but they are a dying breed). Autoland has been around since the late '70s. I can hear 99% of you saying, "My plane doesn't have autoland that proves we need pilots."
When fully autonomous military aircraft are already flying and spacecraft can be flown to the outer planets from Houston, the potential to make cockpit crew redundant can be seen. Certainly, it could be argued that the FO isn't really required on an RJ. (A regional check airman once commented to me, "taking up a new hire FO on the first IOE flight is like flying single pilot.") B1900s and Metros can be flown single pilot (though not under 121). The truth is airlines need FOs (and evetually pilots) because the FAA regs SAY SO! Until the regs change, there is no reason to develope pilotless transport aircraft.
Perhaps the Feds, the public, and the unions will prevent a change to the regs, but if a change ever comes, we are done. Actually, I should say those who can only fly computerised planes will be done... those of us who can hand fly steam gauges will still be employed albeit flying 50 year old caravans.
10-06-2007, 07:25 PM
#29
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Joined APC: Sep 2007
Posts: 81
Um no they didn't. They lowered the mins to fill the spots becoming open from captains going to the majors! The original mins were too high hence people could not upgrade and ca spots were left open. TSA is losing almost a ca a day. It had nothing to do with attrition. They adjusted pay to combat the fo attrition.
10-06-2007, 07:30 PM
#30
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Joined APC: Sep 2007
Posts: 81
Who can ONLY fly glass cockpits? I think any pilot can fly any airplane! And if the future means we can only fly 50 year old caravans then I'm sure this industry will be hurting.
