Gman

True, I suggest we (WE meaning ALL pilots of ALL airlines, except SWA) should join our fellow aviators at Delta and go on a strike for a return to a job one once did not have to be ashamed of.
How about Thanksgiving, show the flying public what enormous power we pilots have if we were to act together and not managements game of 'divide and conquer'.

B757200ER

GMan, you're forgetting the selfish, arrgAAnt "I got mine" types out there, who would never support another airline's pilot group.

Sorry, it just won't work. Too many individuals, no team players.

FlyerJosh

Great idea. Let's all strike over the holidays and screw every family with kids that's trying to get to grandma's for turkey. That will be a great way to show how powerful we are and put the weight of public opinion behind our cause... Stranding the public over the holidays will do nothing more than **** off a lot of people (remember the USAirways fiasco last year), and cause more resentment towards the "spoiled, overpaid airline pilots that ******ed up our vacation/holiday".

I still remember the national news footage of the 8 year old girl crying in PHL because she had to spend Christmas in an airport. The footage of her saying "They cancelled Christmas!" through tears was enough to make anybody hate USAir...

Let's think before we jump, huh?

FlyerJosh

And why shouldn't SWA participate? Is there some sort of double standard?

PILOTGUY

Maybe we should **** the public off. Maybe then they will learn a little about our industry before they try to save $5 dollars of a flight from JFK to LAX. The public has no flippin' idea of how we are paid, how much we work, etc. If they did, the might not keep trying to buy tickets on a dime and still make change. How would you feel getting on a plane if you new the pilots just took a 40% pay cut because you won't pay higher prices for a ticket?
I know fuel prices are having an effect. You do not see oil companies cutting pay so the public can buy gas at a cheaper price, do you? No. So why should the airlines do it? They should not have to, and that IS a double standard.

OldAg84

PILOTGUY- Yeah, go ahead and screw me! It'll just make me want to make fly even more. As it is now; the drive has to be pushing 8-10 hours before I consider flying. Example- .5 hours to airport, 2 hours early (you never know what the line at security will be like- 5 minutes or 45- 1.5 hour flight- 1 hour to pick bags and get a rental car and typically .5-1 hour or so drive from the airport- so 5.5 to 6 hours. I can work my way to my destination, in the privacy of my car (which I pay for every month- whether I rent a car or not)- making cell phone calls or stopping at customers. Plane ticket + rental car or two night in hotels? In this specific example, 8-9 hours driving each way. Cost comparision- say a $300 plane ticket & car rental- or $160 for two nights hotel, $73 in gas and about $75 in food, so $308. Get to leave when I'm ready and not get hosed on a ticket change fee? That's my choice.

But let's go a little further. The market sets the price. Why do I get a cheap ticket? Ummm, let's see- that's right, because I can! My business is not in business to subsidize anyone's income other than mine in particular- it's in business to compete and provide a service. I sell capital equipment that has to be up all the time, last for 20 years, and can cost $500,000-$1,000,000. Unfortunately, I've been schwacked for being 1-2% high. Live and learn, or work harder and smarter, whatever. But if I went to your airline and said, "money is a little tight, can I pay even less?" I'd be laughed at. I pay the cost of fuel, steel, telecommunications, health insurance, retirement, etc. for my business as well. In a capitalist society, the value is in the transaction. It's not what you or I think it's worth, it's ultimately what the market will bear and pay. So go ahead and charge double, we'll both see what happens.

Let's be clear-I don't begrudge anyone making a living and getting paid the most they are able. Clearly, in the airline business, management and labor have issues. Choices-

1. Perhaps we can reverse deregulation. Let's ground half the fleets and start fixing prices. Of course, a large percentage of the pilots (and other employees) will have to look elsewhere for a living. If the industry never deregulated, how many pilots would never have been able to find seat anywhere?

2. Or compete- that's what capitalism is all about- beat the competition until they bleed and go under. In the '90's it was OK for legacy carriers to squish LCC's and start-ups with predatory pricing and 300 flights a day between city pairs- in some cases putting them under, or at least helping. Now, at some level, the shoe appears to be on the other foot. Should we change the rules?

3. Continue sticking loyal customers with "paying full fare" for an earlier flight, plus a "ticket change fee"- all for the privilege of using perishable inventory and freeing up seats on later flights. It's happened to me. It really wants to make me fly, getting this, "I'm standing here at the counter anyway, and you're 3 hours early, but to get you home on the next flight, which by the way is half-full, will cost you an extra $500". I don't quite get it, but go ahead and keep charging it. I'll keep driving.

4. Get rid of the LCC's- I've had excellent service on LCC's (SWA and AirTran). The A/C are new"er", the poeple are friendly, and I've gotten there safely and efficiently. I've flown legacy carriers where the scowls, attitude, and lack of service have actually shocked me. "Oh, these poor people have lost a lot of seniority and they don't like it". Well folks; you're in a service business, perhaps you might want to change careers. On top of that, I've seen some pretty tatty legacy airline A/C interiors. It's about all about service and competition. Or we can penalize SWA for their ability to hedge fuel.

So get with your union, have your union work (or not work) with management. Get the most you can, I hope you (and every other American, pilot or otherwise) will. If it is sustainable, you'll get to keep it. If not, choices will have to be made. Just try not to blame your customers (or the market)- or alternatively, I guess go ahead and screw them to teach them a lesson.

My qualifications- a non-pilot, domestic frequent flyer with over 2 million miles on every single airline; who knows the following-

1. airlines don't control the weather
2. A/C break occasionally- hopefully on the tarmac where the waiting is easy
3. I know good service when I see it.
4. I am well read on the airline industry, so I know (not first hand mind you) about some of the challenges it faces, how you are paid, how hard you work, etc.

Respectfully submitted.

HSLD

Welcome to the forum, thanks for the post and your insights. I agree with each of your points, and agree that "screwing" those who pay my salary is not the best answer.

Under current law, self help is in the toolkit for airline unions and managements, it's beyond me why that seems to be the only solution that each side can act on. Very clearly, airline management will take everything they can [contractually] just as a union will too. UAL's ESOP was a huge failure, and I don't see pilot unions looking to jump back into to "interest-based" negotiations any time soon.

At the end of the day, Airline Management gets the Unions they deserve, and vice versa. It's a shame to see the traveling public caught in the middle. IMO, unions will NEVER win the battle for public opinion in terms of pay and working rules. The working conditions and demands of the job are SO far out of step with the 9-5 world that the "public" simply can't understand. However, until a more enlightened management model becomes the norm, labor strife at the airlines is, and will be a fact of life.

Regards -

OldAg84

HSLD

Thanks for the reply. It's clear to me in most cases; management has not helped labor at the airlines, or in a lot of cases acted in good faith. That's also true elsewhere, at large companies and small- trust me, I know. I think everyone should get what they can- I guess when they can. If and when the travel market settles out and comes around, hopefully everybody's income will start going back up.

My former neighbor was a Pan Am pilot, some of the stories he told me about work rules, etc. could not have helped. But there are also good reasons for the unions, and I suspect you'll start seeing more of them, in ever increasingly odd situations, as the "new robber barons" continue their mauling of US industries, airline and other.

OldAg84

I wanted to add this. As mentioned on other threads I've also had great service from legacy carriers, from employees who were working as well as the could under difficult circumstances arising from cost cutting. Although I'm not a pilot, I've been an aviation buff (some may call me a freak, I prefer buff) all my life. I enjoy military and civil aviation history, both recent and current. So it pains me as well to see the struggles the industry currently faces, although I'm not taking any hits directly. I simply wanted to post a response from a passsenger's perspective.

Thanks for the welcome.

Gman

Sorry OldAge84, don't take it personally but you have no right whatsoever to bring in any passengers perspective into a airline pilot forum.

Nobody, nobody who has not been an airline pilot or F/A will understand what it means to work this job. I don't care how much you think you travel, I will guarantee that no matter how strenous you schedule might be, it is a vacation compared to what we are forced to do.

Leaving the airport at 1000 PM, waiting for the shuttle to the hotel which is never there and knowing that you have to be back at the airport at 0600 AM is just the beginning. And you expect us to be friendly to you PAX?

You never treat your passengers/customers better than you are treated by your company. Thats why SWA is a good airline, and thats why we sometimes feel like whipping you people...

Only a show of force,e.g. a strike would demonstrate that we just about had it with this.