Gman

I agree, one just has to wonder how much more are we going to take?
Is is just a question of time until the profession is finished or are we waiting of some magical return to the glory days?

Gman

Yes, there is a different standard. After being partially responsible for driving the entire airline industry to the Greyhound travel level, the SWA guys are now the best paid pilots with the most flexible scheduled and the best outlook for a secure retirement. So why would they strike?
Every downturn for the rest of the industry like 9/11 and Fuel price increases will only increase their profits.

OldAg84

Wow. I don't know why anybody would want to hear from their customer base- if I had not said I was a passenger; would that be OK? Your right, I don't know how difficult or tiring flying your 6th leg of the day into a snowstorm in Boston can be. And I never will. I've been a firefighter, wet in 20 degrees F, for 6 hours in the dark- I was miserable, but didn't take it out on anybody- it was just the way it was and part of the job. I've worked a 12 hour day, in the cold precipitation outside, on a machine that wouldn't work, then gone to the airport for a four hour trip home- but I didn't take it out on my customer at the plant, the car rental folks, gate agents, F/A's, or anyone else.

"You never treat your passenger/customers better than your are treated by your company". The fact you can even type that is beyond me.

If you want to treat your customers like crap because you're not happy, go ahead, that's your perogative. And since the flight crew often sets the tone for the cabin crew, you'll all be in sync. You've just provided me with another data point, at no charge (thanks); as to why I should drive rather than fly. Do you ever wonder why business might be off?

My advice to you is to control what you can control and let the rest slide.

If you have had enough, go ahead and strike. Like I've said before, I'm not there and I can't judge. But if it all goes south, promise me you won't go into sales- unless it's for a competitor.

Either way, and I do mean this, believe me; good luck down the road.

I promise not to post again anytime soon. And thanks again to those who extended a welcome.

Marchetti

Hey OldAg84,
I appreciate what risk firemen take to save lives in a burning building...but...When you go into a burning building how n=many lives are typically riding on a successful outcome? I do not know, and I am not going to guess. How many times a day do you typically do this? Anyone who flys for a living holds 50 to 250+ peoples lives in their (usually two in a crew) hands, for a period of time....45 min to many hours. They do this many times a day and many more times every month. You just cannot compare the two. A sugeon only deals with one patient under the knife at a time but yet their compensation is far greater than mine ever will be. Yet I know some surgeons who get paged to go in after they have had a drink and that does not stop them. I could go on but I have a 0430 show in the morning.

CVG767A

Guys like OldAg84 pay our salaries. Without them, we wouldn't be here. An attitude like Gman's , if it is a part of the culture in an organization, is a death sentence to that company. No matter how management treats you, you still take care of your customer.

A number of my friends are road warriors (mostly mgmt. consultants), and their insights into the airlines' operations and culture are usually spot on, frequently in contrast to the myopic views of some of my co-workers. Some of them fly more than I do, and get a much fuller picture of what's happening around them.

Gman, you might learn a few things by listening to them.

SkyHigh

Strike !!!

I know that I will be on strike on Thanksgiving with the rest of my laid off or furloughed brothers and sisters !!!!


SkyHigh

FLYBOYMATTHEW

Thank you for your logical perspective CVG767A. This is not a pilot vs. passenger issue. The passenger deserves the best service we can provide, irrespective of the rate they are paying for the ticket. Otherwise we would just stamp the price they paid for their ticket on their forehead and treat each of them accordingly on a pro-rata basis. With the exception of well planned and thought out labor actions, our beef with management should not affect the experience of the flying public. They are our bread and butter. The average Joe or company will get on whatever website is going to give them the best rate, on whatever airline is offering it at the time. It's not the public's fault, they are just taking advantage of the "situation". This is our battle. Rock bottom fares are king, and airline brand loyalty is at an all time low. On the other hand OldAg84, it is unrealistic to expect such amenities as a hot meal, in-flight movie, and plush new interiors for bargain barrel ticket prices.

Trijetter

OldAg84, thank you for your insite and opinions, Well thought out. I only wish you could post them on an airline management forum. A long time ago I learned several things that apply to any job, especially flying
Safety, Customer Service and Corporate Effiency. It does not matter if your flipping burgers or flying pax/boxes. Be professional! Gman, sorry for your misfortunes, the only way to change them is to get involved with your union and make a difference. oh and never bite the hand that feeds you.

OldAg84

A quick post to reply to multiple posters-

Marchetti- pilots regulary have responsibility for lives on their A/C, that's only one, although perhaps the most relevant, reason pilots should make a fair wage. Firefighters get paid to go to emergencies, so you never know what's going to be there when the truck stops. It might be a slow week or multiple calls in one day. You take the good and bad, because you can't control all of the factors. It's like weather and equipment, snow and ice happens, and well maintained planes have problems. So you deal with it and think wistfully of July, or perhaps Tampa- I don't know. In the same former life long ago I was also an EMT. A number of my patients, not all, but more than a few were in acute life threatening straits. I've literally had people die in my arms- but thankfully not because of my efforts. So my task was to keep someone from dying right there, or at a minimum, not to kill them. For most physicians, it's even more so. Pilots however, as someone mentioned before, are paid for their judgement and ability to respond to critical emergencies. Most of these emergencies never happen, but doesn't mean they can't (or won't). Personally, I want a content, non-stressed pilot working without distractions up front. There are merits to both sides of the argument. I suppose a downside for the airline biz is the lack of insurance or other outside funding to pay for air travel. If that was the case you could set the prices anywhere you see fit- like physicians do! Hope you have a good trip.

FLYBOY MATTHEW- I see what you are saying about service. I've been around the block, flew as pax when flying was fun. I don't honestly know if that's a good thing or not!. I really don't expect a three course meal anymore, but I expect to be treated nicely and not have to beg for a soda. I'll also give you most people expect more and then are disappointed. Yet they got to Chicago for 1/2 the cost of gas and in 1/10th the time. I'm not really sure how to fix that perception.

Finally, the internet has somewhat killed my business's botton line as well; although I'm certain it's hurting your airline's (and all others) pricing and profitability efforts much more.

It's fair to say, although it's a public forum, it's for pilots. So I'll sign off. I've said my piece in response here and intend stay only as a guest to lurk and learn.

Best of luck on the labor front to all. Everybody have safe trips this holiday.

Rightseat Ballast

How to educate the flying public...I think the first step is to find a way to earn the respect of our passengers. We have lost that repsect, and not because of media campaigns that show us as overpaid and underworked whiners. It comes down to attitude and the impressions of professionalism we send to our passengers. If you have 5 minutes, stand in the doorway during the baording process and let the passengers put a face to the voice they hear over the PA. Step one accomplished...they think we are human. Also, as for first impressions, do not read the paper when you are the gate. Passengers see you from inside the terminal, and if their flight leaves 5 late and you blame last minute paperwork, well in their heads that paperwork would not have been so last minute if you had not been "relaxing" with that coffee and magazine. Remember that passengers do not know how our job flows, and therefore they are ready to invent explanations based on what they see. These explanantions will be passed on to friends and co-workers, and all of the sudden 15 more people watching the news one day doubt the pilots claims of horrible work conditions. respect lost. Another way to promote our professionalism and our value to the flying public is to make sure our announcements to the back are appropriate. Do not use the PA as a forum to "pass the buck" to the rampers, the jet bridge driver, or any one else who you can verbally beat up. Yes, you may be telling the truth, but the passengers recognize an assault on a defenseless, LESSER PAID member of the airline...the person our passenger is more likely to relate to. When you make a PA announcement, do not complain, but rather illustrate the (complex) processes at work that get the passengers and their baggage to point B. Make them appreciate all the work that goes into a single flight. The same goes for delay annoucements in flight...make sure you have a positive attitude, and elaborate as best you can about why the reason you have cited as the cause of any delays has impacted your flight. Make the connections for them. Appear to be skilled and knowledgeable. And as for being knowledgeable, that is the one positive trait passengers attribute to us. Show it off. Warn them of turbulence, warn them of known holding, and warn them of difficult landings due to weather, etc. They like to know that we are on top of a situation. It makes them feel safer. And that makes them respect us. Stop avioding PA announcements because you don't want to. i have sat with too many Captains who feel that PA's are not necessary, and left the passengers in the dark. SERVE OUR CUSTOMERS! You will probably find the things I have said are in your job description. I am not suggesting that you go above and beyond, just follow the image and PR guidelines, and you will restore the respect our profession needs. With respect will come less customer complaints, and more public support for our cause. Will it help us increase fares to a sustainable level? I am sure Southwest could raise fares 10 dollars a leg with negligable impact on loads. Think about it...