Mayday Mayday Mayday at Big Red (AC)
10-08-2024, 04:20 PM
#1
On Reserve
Thread Starter
Joined APC: Sep 2023
Posts: 13
Mayday Mayday Mayday at Big Red (AC)
Things are really going off the rails north of the 49th parallel...
All of the union's rhetoric about a "World Class Contract" and "ending the discount on Canadian labour" has been replaced with "we got you a better contract"... "we won't do any better if you vote NO"... and "we'll get 'em next time"...
Well, you're all probably dying to know what is proposed in the new Tentative Agreement, so here are the coles notes:
For the first week or so after this TA was announced, it seemed like the pilot group was preparing their torches and pitchforks... but then the roadshows started, and despite promising to never put on a selljob, that is just what the union has done. The MEC and Negotiating Committee have repeatedly admitted that they missed the mark on a lot of items and that "this isn't the best deal", but rather, that this is "the best that we will get". They claim that we had "peak leverage" 3 days prior to the strike deadline, and threaten that if we vote this down, we will lose the support of the public, and and the government will impose the harshest form of binding arbitration under Canadian labour law, despite the fact that the federal government, along with the two main opposition parties, had all expressed support of the pilots and pledged not to intervene in negotiations. And to top it all off, our MEC Chair and Vice Chair have both publicly stated that they will resign if this TA is voted down, leaving us onboard a rudderless ship!!! The selljob and scare tactics are working, and now it seems that a lot of pilots (especially the senior guys) who were initially NO votes, have succumbed to their fear and are voting YES, not because they think this is a good deal, but because they are scared of what will happen if we vote this down.
This was supposed to be our chance. Our once in a generation opportunity to right the ship and really achieve some meaningful gains for the profession in Canada... but we flinched and squandered whatever leverage we had. Sadly what we are being offered is not even close to world class... we're still way behind you guys when it comes to pay and lifestyle... and in fact, our proposed "improvements" to QOL don't even rival what is offered at other domestic carriers in Canada.
Rant over. I guess there's a reason that you guys call us the "Pirates of the Atlantic..."
All of the union's rhetoric about a "World Class Contract" and "ending the discount on Canadian labour" has been replaced with "we got you a better contract"... "we won't do any better if you vote NO"... and "we'll get 'em next time"...
Well, you're all probably dying to know what is proposed in the new Tentative Agreement, so here are the coles notes:
- Pay
- Well we've certainly "closed the gap"... but depending on your seniority and position, the size of that gap can really vary. The following numbers are all in CAD, and comparisons assume 1CAD=1USD.
- Yr 1 pay is $87/hr... or $79k/yr (up from $59k)
- Yr 2 pay is $95/hr... or $85k/yr (up from $64k)
- Pay for Yrs 3-4 has increased from the previous "flat amounts" of $73k and $82k respectively, to anywhere from $116/hr on a NB up to $154/hr on a WB.
- Yr 12 WB FOs are 10-19% behind their US conterparts depending on fleet.
- NB Captains are around 20% behind at all years and fleets.
- WB Captains are between 5-15% behind depending on fleet.
- In terms of Percent of Captain Pay, we range from 42% on Yr3 NB to 37% Yr3 WB, up to 65% at Yr 12. Contrast that with AA/DL/UA FOs who range from 53.5% in Yr 2 to 68.3% in Yr 12.
- Ironically, the union is touting that we got a 26% average pay raise immediately, with 4%/yr for the remaining 3 years of the contract... however, the TA also includes changes to our profit sharing program, which previously paid out up to 8% of a pilot's income fairly consistently during non-COVID years... the proposed changes will move the goal posts for profit sharing so far down the field that they are practically unattainable... and voila, the company has effectively funded our raises through the elimination of our profit sharing!
- Overtime premium: increasing from 50% to 100%... but nowhere close to the $$$ that you guys can make.
- Well we've certainly "closed the gap"... but depending on your seniority and position, the size of that gap can really vary. The following numbers are all in CAD, and comparisons assume 1CAD=1USD.
- Scheduling: our current contract has 0.0hr in terms of an Average Daily Guarantee (the only saving grace on an inefficient trip with a long layover is our pitiful trip rig of 1:4)... well the company is "graciously" offering ADG of 4.5hr... in 2027
- Trip Trade / Open Time Swap: FLICA is out of the question... the company says that they will use a Jepp system... and they'll "try" to implement it by the summer of 2026
- Vacation: a VAC day is currently worth 2.9 hr... the company is offering 3.25 hr in 2026 and 3.75 in 2027.
- Reserve: still no option for Long Call... merely 2 hr Short Call...
- Training: recurrent training is still not included in our monthly blocks/lines
- Commuting: We finally got a commuting policy!!! Apparently the company fought tooth and nail against it, despite it having zero cost to them... and in the end they have offered what is the bare minimum across North America (a two flight buffer and if you don't make it to work, your trip is dropped without pay). You'll probably all be amazed to learn that even our FAs have had this policy for many years now. Oh, and we still have to pay taxes and airport fees when we fly domestically, which usually amounts to around $130 per round trip.
- And overall, the new contract is still full of language that benefits the company and allows them to bend us over whenever they want, in order to protect the operation.
For the first week or so after this TA was announced, it seemed like the pilot group was preparing their torches and pitchforks... but then the roadshows started, and despite promising to never put on a selljob, that is just what the union has done. The MEC and Negotiating Committee have repeatedly admitted that they missed the mark on a lot of items and that "this isn't the best deal", but rather, that this is "the best that we will get". They claim that we had "peak leverage" 3 days prior to the strike deadline, and threaten that if we vote this down, we will lose the support of the public, and and the government will impose the harshest form of binding arbitration under Canadian labour law, despite the fact that the federal government, along with the two main opposition parties, had all expressed support of the pilots and pledged not to intervene in negotiations. And to top it all off, our MEC Chair and Vice Chair have both publicly stated that they will resign if this TA is voted down, leaving us onboard a rudderless ship!!! The selljob and scare tactics are working, and now it seems that a lot of pilots (especially the senior guys) who were initially NO votes, have succumbed to their fear and are voting YES, not because they think this is a good deal, but because they are scared of what will happen if we vote this down.
This was supposed to be our chance. Our once in a generation opportunity to right the ship and really achieve some meaningful gains for the profession in Canada... but we flinched and squandered whatever leverage we had. Sadly what we are being offered is not even close to world class... we're still way behind you guys when it comes to pay and lifestyle... and in fact, our proposed "improvements" to QOL don't even rival what is offered at other domestic carriers in Canada.
Rant over. I guess there's a reason that you guys call us the "Pirates of the Atlantic..."
Last edited by NorthOf49; 10-08-2024 at 04:46 PM.
10-08-2024, 04:41 PM
#2
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Sep 2014
Posts: 910
Things are really going off the rails north of the 49th parallel...
All of the union's rhetoric about a "World Class Contract" and "ending the discount on Canadian labour" has been replaced with "we got you a better contract"... "we won't do any better if you vote NO"... and "we'll get 'em next time"...
Well, you're all probably dying to know what is proposed in the new Tentative Agreement, so here are the coles notes:
For the first week or so after this TA was announced, it seemed like the pilot group was preparing their torches and pitchforks... but then the roadshows started, and despite promising to never put on a selljob, that is just what the union has done. The MEC and Negotiating Committee have repeatedly admitted that they missed the mark on a lot of items and that "this isn't the best deal", but rather, that this is "the best that we will get". They claim that we had "peak leverage" 3 days prior to the strike deadline, and threaten that if we vote this down, we will lose the support of the public, and and the government will impose the harshest form of binding arbitration under Canadian labour law, despite the fact that the federal government, along with the two main opposition parties, had all expressed support of the pilots and pledged not to intervene in negotiations. And to top it all off, our MEC Chair and Vice Chair have both publicly stated that they will resign if this TA is voted down, leaving us onboard a rudderless ship!!! The selljob and scare tactics are working, and now it seems that a lot of pilots (especially the senior guys) who were initially NO votes, have succumbed to their fear and are voting YES, not because they think this is a good deal, but because they are scared of what will happen if we vote this down.
This was supposed to be our chance. Our once in a generation opportunity to right the ship and really achieve some meaningful gains for the profession in Canada. But sadly what we are being offered is not even close to world class... we're still way behind you guys when it comes to pay and lifestyle... and in fact, our proposed "improvements" to QOL don't even rival what is offered at other domestic carriers in Canada.
Rant over. I guess there's a reason that you guys call us the "Pirates of the Atlantic..."
All of the union's rhetoric about a "World Class Contract" and "ending the discount on Canadian labour" has been replaced with "we got you a better contract"... "we won't do any better if you vote NO"... and "we'll get 'em next time"...
Well, you're all probably dying to know what is proposed in the new Tentative Agreement, so here are the coles notes:
- Pay
- Well we've certainly "closed the gap"... but depending on your seniority and position, the size of that gap can really vary. The following numbers are all in CAD, and comparisons assume 1CAD=1USD.
- Yr 1 pay is $87/hr... or $79k/yr (up from $59k)
- Yr 2 pay is $95/hr... or $85k/yr (up from $64k)
- Pay for Yrs 3-4 has increased from the previous "flat amounts" of $73k and $82k respectively, to anywhere from $116/hr on a NB up to $154/hr on a WB.
- Yr 12 WB FOs are 10-19% behind their US conterparts depending on fleet.
- NB Captains are around 20% behind at all years and fleets.
- WB Captains are between 5-15% behind depending on fleet.
- In terms of Percent of Captain Pay, we range from 42% on Yr3 NB to 37% Yr3 WB, up to 65% at Yr 12. Contrast that with AA/DL/UA FOs who range from 53.5% in Yr 2 to 68.3% in Yr 12.
- Ironically, the union is touting that we got a 26% average pay raise immediately, with 4%/yr for the remaining 3 years of the contract... however, the TA also includes changes to our profit sharing program, which previously paid out up to 8% of a pilot's income fairly consistently during non-COVID years... the proposed changes will move the goal posts for profit sharing so far down the field that they are practically unattainable... and voila, the company has effectively funded our raises through the elimination of our profit sharing!
- Overtime premium: increasing from 50% to 100%... but nowhere close to the $$$ that you guys can make.
- Well we've certainly "closed the gap"... but depending on your seniority and position, the size of that gap can really vary. The following numbers are all in CAD, and comparisons assume 1CAD=1USD.
- Scheduling: our current contract has 0.0hr in terms of an Average Daily Guarantee (the only saving grace on an inefficient trip with a long layover is our pitiful trip rig of 1:4)... well the company is "graciously" offering ADG of 4.5hr... in 2027
- Trip Trade / Open Time Swap: FLICA is out of the question... the company says that they will use a Jepp system... and they'll "try" to implement it by the summer of 2026
- Vacation: a VAC day is currently worth 2.9 hr... the company is offering 3.25 hr in 2026 and 3.75 in 2027.
- Reserve: still no option for Long Call... merely 2 hr Short Call...
- Training: recurrent training is still not included in our monthly blocks/lines
- Commuting: We finally got a commuting policy!!! Apparently the company fought tooth and nail against it, despite it having zero cost to them... and in the end they have offered what is the bare minimum across North America (a two flight buffer and if you don't make it to work, your trip is dropped without pay). You'll probably all be amazed to learn that even our FAs have had this policy for many years now. Oh, and we still have to pay taxes and airport fees when we fly domestically, which usually amounts to around $130 per round trip.
- And overall, the new contract is still full of language that benefits the company and allows them to bend us over whenever they want, in order to protect the operation.
For the first week or so after this TA was announced, it seemed like the pilot group was preparing their torches and pitchforks... but then the roadshows started, and despite promising to never put on a selljob, that is just what the union has done. The MEC and Negotiating Committee have repeatedly admitted that they missed the mark on a lot of items and that "this isn't the best deal", but rather, that this is "the best that we will get". They claim that we had "peak leverage" 3 days prior to the strike deadline, and threaten that if we vote this down, we will lose the support of the public, and and the government will impose the harshest form of binding arbitration under Canadian labour law, despite the fact that the federal government, along with the two main opposition parties, had all expressed support of the pilots and pledged not to intervene in negotiations. And to top it all off, our MEC Chair and Vice Chair have both publicly stated that they will resign if this TA is voted down, leaving us onboard a rudderless ship!!! The selljob and scare tactics are working, and now it seems that a lot of pilots (especially the senior guys) who were initially NO votes, have succumbed to their fear and are voting YES, not because they think this is a good deal, but because they are scared of what will happen if we vote this down.
This was supposed to be our chance. Our once in a generation opportunity to right the ship and really achieve some meaningful gains for the profession in Canada. But sadly what we are being offered is not even close to world class... we're still way behind you guys when it comes to pay and lifestyle... and in fact, our proposed "improvements" to QOL don't even rival what is offered at other domestic carriers in Canada.
Rant over. I guess there's a reason that you guys call us the "Pirates of the Atlantic..."
its absolutely criminal what is happening up there. I hope you guys get what you deserve and commensurate with what we recently negotiated down here the last few years.
what are the possible outcomes? What happens if you vote the contract down? Is there a chance the government can intervene and impose something on you again? How long has it been since you’ve negotiated a contract?
best of luck. I was born and raised in Canada but since my parents are American I moved down here to fly after college.
Last edited by Extenda; 10-08-2024 at 04:51 PM.
10-08-2024, 06:21 PM
#4
On Reserve
Thread Starter
Joined APC: Sep 2023
Posts: 13
hey look at the bright side, at least housing in all your domiciles is affordable…oh wait
its absolutely criminal what is happening up there. I hope you guys get what you deserve and commensurate with what we recently negotiated down here the last few years.
what are the possible outcomes? What happens if you vote the contract down? Is there a chance the government can intervene and impose something on you again? How long has it been since you’ve negotiated a contract?
best of luck. I was born and raised in Canada but since my parents are American I moved down here to fly after college.
its absolutely criminal what is happening up there. I hope you guys get what you deserve and commensurate with what we recently negotiated down here the last few years.
what are the possible outcomes? What happens if you vote the contract down? Is there a chance the government can intervene and impose something on you again? How long has it been since you’ve negotiated a contract?
best of luck. I was born and raised in Canada but since my parents are American I moved down here to fly after college.
The last time that our pilot group went through full negotiations was in 2014... and they locked in 2% annual raises for 10 years on pathetic wages, and atrocious working conditions that do not align with management's goal to be a "top ten global airline"... try "bottom ten".
It's unclear what would happen if we voted this down. Lots of other labour groups in Canada, both in aviation and other industries, have gotten better after voting NO to the first deal... there are also great examples of that down south. But sadly, our union won't even entertain that possibility... they insist that we will be forced into Final Offer Selection arbitration (where each side presents a full contract, and the arbitrator picks one without compromise). It's happened once to us in the past, but the odds of it happening again are highly unlikely in today's political climate...
10-08-2024, 06:33 PM
#6
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: May 2011
Position: 737 CA
Posts: 960
I wish I had something better to add, but I hope you all get every cent, benefit, and day off that you deserve. We've finally made some huge headway south of the border in this last go round and I'd love nothing more than our brothers and sisters across the 49th to be right there with us.
10-08-2024, 06:51 PM
#7
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Dec 2022
Posts: 312
I wish I had something better to add, but I hope you all get every cent, benefit, and day off that you deserve. We've finally made some huge headway south of the border in this last go round and I'd love nothing more than our brothers and sisters across the 49th to be right there with us.
10-08-2024, 07:50 PM
#8
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Apr 2007
Posts: 3,816
No, and never again. We finally gained parity with pre-9/11 and RJ-Revolution wages. We’ll never gain back what we lost in twenty years of depressed wages and QOL, but they can pry this contract out of my cold-dead hands. There is no reason to ever concede an inch. THIS is the cost of an airline pilot going forward.
10-08-2024, 08:34 PM
#9
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Dec 2011
Position: A320 FO
Posts: 1,039
No, and never again. We finally gained parity with pre-9/11 and RJ-Revolution wages. We’ll never gain back what we lost in twenty years of depressed wages and QOL, but they can pry this contract out of my cold-dead hands. There is no reason to ever concede an inch. THIS is the cost of an airline pilot going forward.
10-08-2024, 10:03 PM
#10
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jul 2023
Posts: 235
I hope you guys vote it down, and I hope that results in a much better contract.
CAD/USD is nowhere close to 1:1. 1 USD = 1.37 CAD as of right now when I posted this. That means your WB captains are roughly on par with our NB FOs.
CAD/USD is nowhere close to 1:1. 1 USD = 1.37 CAD as of right now when I posted this. That means your WB captains are roughly on par with our NB FOs.
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