MBA While Flying the Line
08-14-2024, 06:54 AM
#31
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Mar 2008
Posts: 3,910
With all respect, this is nonsense. The reason why it's nonsense is that many of us have no say in when we leave the flying business and it may be after your age 35-40 timeframe but decades before mandatory airline retirement at 65. If you're shown the door for whatever reason (lost medical, bad judgement that makes you unhirable, whatever), that's the wrong time to start working on obtaining pre-requisite credentials to start your next career. It's like buying life insurance - if you wait until you need it to buy it, it's too late.
ROI is a moving target, and I'd argue that an advanced degree actually has a higher ROI for an older person changing careers because you have to set yourself apart from a younger person who may have a more recent education but lacks experience. In that case, an advanced degree plus your experience could put you ahead of a younger inexperienced hiring candidate. If you lose your $300k+ airline job, an entry level mgt job at $80k with a growth path towards $200k or more is an AWESOME backup plan compared to what most pilots have, which is pretty much nothing but unemployment while they scramble to luck into something paying over minimum wage. We have time on our hands, especially young pilots or new hires who very often have quite a bit of dead time on their hands sitting reserve or on overnights. Sign up for an online class or two and get some certificates just in case you find yourself on the street looking for ANYTHING.
Military retirees know this very well. I retired from the USAF around age 44, and when I did because I'd gotten an advanced degree I could have easily jumped into a job at any fortune 500 company starting somewhere between $80k and $150k without using my flying experience in any way. Getting a PMP certification could have bumped me up at least one level on the payscale and put me on a solid management track. My resume would have sold me to the hiring folks as a team leader and project manager. Thing is, any one of us can do that if you have any sort of degree or certificate that shows you're willing and able to learn something new. Yes, flying a desk in my opinion sucks. But if you're on the street without a medical thinking about signing up for uber so you can make rent for one more month, your age doesn't matter.
Networking helps, but you still have to prepare yourself and set yourself apart from everyone else applying. That's true no matter your age, and it could be even more important if you need to start another career and don't want to start at the very bottom. There's your ROI right there, jumping the career ladder by 10 years on the basis of experience and a proven willingness to keep learning as evidenced by the advanced degree you picked up when you didn't really need to at that moment in time.
ROI is a moving target, and I'd argue that an advanced degree actually has a higher ROI for an older person changing careers because you have to set yourself apart from a younger person who may have a more recent education but lacks experience. In that case, an advanced degree plus your experience could put you ahead of a younger inexperienced hiring candidate. If you lose your $300k+ airline job, an entry level mgt job at $80k with a growth path towards $200k or more is an AWESOME backup plan compared to what most pilots have, which is pretty much nothing but unemployment while they scramble to luck into something paying over minimum wage. We have time on our hands, especially young pilots or new hires who very often have quite a bit of dead time on their hands sitting reserve or on overnights. Sign up for an online class or two and get some certificates just in case you find yourself on the street looking for ANYTHING.
Military retirees know this very well. I retired from the USAF around age 44, and when I did because I'd gotten an advanced degree I could have easily jumped into a job at any fortune 500 company starting somewhere between $80k and $150k without using my flying experience in any way. Getting a PMP certification could have bumped me up at least one level on the payscale and put me on a solid management track. My resume would have sold me to the hiring folks as a team leader and project manager. Thing is, any one of us can do that if you have any sort of degree or certificate that shows you're willing and able to learn something new. Yes, flying a desk in my opinion sucks. But if you're on the street without a medical thinking about signing up for uber so you can make rent for one more month, your age doesn't matter.
Networking helps, but you still have to prepare yourself and set yourself apart from everyone else applying. That's true no matter your age, and it could be even more important if you need to start another career and don't want to start at the very bottom. There's your ROI right there, jumping the career ladder by 10 years on the basis of experience and a proven willingness to keep learning as evidenced by the advanced degree you picked up when you didn't really need to at that moment in time.
Joe Donuts is 45 and is tired of flying, the constant ebb and flow of the industry, and hates being away from home. He wants to go out and become a lawyer. He's at a regional making $135/yr. He's got a wife and 2 kids. Wife works and makes the same amount of money. They're doing OK.
It's been a while since Joe was in school, but he buckles down and does ok on the LSAT. There are 8 law schools in his state, but only 1 near him, so that's pretty much the only choice. Hour commute each way. But, lucky him, it's a school that's at the national average of law school tuition, but is hardly a name brand school. So that will be $150k, without books, fees and extrania. He's going to hustle, because that clock is ticking, and do the summer terms, so he'll finish up in 2 calendar years. His wife is supportive, and picks up extra time and workload to make that happen.
He does OK. Not top 10, or even 10%, but does ok and passes the bar. The school he went to was hardly name brand, so there is zero premium added there. Now he's a 47 YO with a law degree and zero experience.
So lets add up some numbers. You've got $150k for the tutition, but now he's lost 2 years at the regional, which is a net minus $270k. But, you also have to deduct any benefits, so lets say he was getting a 6% DC contribution, so that minus another 16k or so. So that's about $436k out of pocket, directly, without accounting for any return on those funds. He's starting off in an entirely new career, so he's getting the entry level of about $80k, and the median income for lawyers in his state is $135k. Assuming a direct line of increase from that to the median, call it 10k per year, he just gets back to what he was earning in 6 years, so that's another $180k lost, not including the lost DC contribution, as he gets back to even, and now he's 53.
So our guy is now down over $600k. That is exclusive of any return on investment for that money, and absolutely does not account for any home strife, hard work, lost nights & weekends and, oh, by the way, the new gig is 60 hours a week.
And this is the BEST case scenario (well, Joe could have made the jump younger). If his spouse didn't work, or made signficiantly less, that would have been a problem. We could have been into a recession when he got out of school, and not been able to find a firm. At some point someone says "yea, but Joe was a pilot. He could have made that a specialty". Yes, you're right, but that is a very niche area, already saturated with people who thought exactly the same thing. Sure, he could make a go of it, but again, that brings us back to being an outlier.
Of the "big numbers" professions, Law is actually the best case. Relatively low bar to entry, short school duration that can be made a little bit shorter, and an average, but not spectacular back end payout. Medicine is considerably worse. There is always a chance you get lucky in law, but you start so far behind the power curve in medicine, there is virtually no way to recover financially once past 35. MBAs, the other professional track, is also quite expensive for what it is, and you get in line with the millions of other MBAs out there.
Science and engineering? Good thoughts. If you're going to be anything more than a pippet drone or school teacher, you'll need a PE or PHD. That's 7 years, minimum. The good news is that you don't really have to front the money for graduate school in STEM topics. The bad news is the pay during those years is catestrophic, and the back end even more so.
If you're jammed up, lost your medical and don't have a great disability option, then yea, it's sink or swim, and there's really no alternative. But if you're sitting in Omaha on a layover, and are fumming that the life "just isn't for you", then you'd best do the math before you make that decision.
Last edited by NuGuy; 08-14-2024 at 07:20 AM.
08-14-2024, 07:07 AM
#32
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Mar 2017
Posts: 3,787
All sounds good until you put pencil to paper. I'm not talking about a internet course you do in your spare time that prints out a certificate at the end, but a no kidding career change. And God bless our military folks, but they come pre-baked with a "leadership and/or organization" degree, which, quite frankly, most places need.
Joe Donuts is 45 and is tired of flying, the constant ebb and flow of the industry, and hates being away from home. He wants to go out and become a lawyer. He's at a regional making $135/yr. He's got a wife and 2 kids. Wife works and makes the same amount of money. They're doing OK.
It's been a while since Joe was in school, but he buckles down and does ok on the LSAT. There are 8 law schools in his state, but only 1 near him, so that's pretty much the only choice. Hour commute each way. But, lucky him, it's a school that's at the national average of law school tuition, but is hardly a name brand school. So that will be $150k, without books, fees and extrania. He's going to hustle, because that clock is ticking, and do the summer terms, so he'll finish up in 2 calendar years. His wife is supportive, and picks up extra time and workload to make that happen.
He does OK. Not top 10, or even 10%, but does ok and passes the bar. The school he went to was hardly name brand, so there is zero premium added there. Now he's a 47 YO with a law degree and zero experience.
So lets add up some numbers. You've got $150k for the tutition, but now he's lost 2 years at the regional, which is a net minus $270k. But, you also have to deduct any benefits, so lets say he was getting a 6% DC contribution, so that minus another 16k or so. So that's about $436k out of pocket, directly, without accounting for any return on those funds. He's starting off in an entirely new career, so he's getting the entry level of about $80k, and the median income for lawyers in his state is $135k. Assuming a direct line of increase from that to the median, call it 10k per year, he just gets back to what he was earning in 6 years, so that's another $180k lost, not including the lost DC contribution, as he gets back to even, and now he's 53.
So our guy is now down over $600k. That is exclusive of any return on investment for that money, and absolutely does not account for any home strife, hard work, lost nights & weekends and, oh, by the way, the new gig is 60 hours a week.
And this is the BEST case scenario (well, Joe could have made the jump younger). If his spouse didn't work, or made signficiantly less, that would have been a problem. We could have been into a recession when he got out of school, and not been able to find a firm. At some point someone says "yea, but Joe was a pilot. He could have made that a specialty". Yes, you're right, but that is a very niche area, already saturated with people who thought exactly the same thing. Sure, he could make a go of it, but again, that brings us back to being an outlier.
Of the "big numbers" professions, Law is actually the best case. Relatively low bar to entry, short school duration that can be made a little bit shorter, and an average, but not spectacular back end payout. Medicine is considerably worse. There is always a chance you get lucky in law, but you start so far behind the power curve in medicine, there is virtually no way to recover financially once past 35. MBAs, the other professional track, is also quite expensive for what it is, and you get in line with the millions of othe MBAs out there.
Science and engineering? Good thoughts. If you're going to be anything more than a pippet drone or school teacher, you'll need a PE or PHD. That's 7 years, minimum. The good news is that you don't really have to front the money for graduate school in STEM topics. The bad news is the pay during those years is catestrophic, and the back end even more so.
If you're jammed up, lost your medical and don't have a great disability option, then yea, it's sink or swim, and there's really no alternative. But if you're sitting in Omaha on a layover, and are fumming that the life "just isn't for you", then you'd best do the math before you make that decision.
Joe Donuts is 45 and is tired of flying, the constant ebb and flow of the industry, and hates being away from home. He wants to go out and become a lawyer. He's at a regional making $135/yr. He's got a wife and 2 kids. Wife works and makes the same amount of money. They're doing OK.
It's been a while since Joe was in school, but he buckles down and does ok on the LSAT. There are 8 law schools in his state, but only 1 near him, so that's pretty much the only choice. Hour commute each way. But, lucky him, it's a school that's at the national average of law school tuition, but is hardly a name brand school. So that will be $150k, without books, fees and extrania. He's going to hustle, because that clock is ticking, and do the summer terms, so he'll finish up in 2 calendar years. His wife is supportive, and picks up extra time and workload to make that happen.
He does OK. Not top 10, or even 10%, but does ok and passes the bar. The school he went to was hardly name brand, so there is zero premium added there. Now he's a 47 YO with a law degree and zero experience.
So lets add up some numbers. You've got $150k for the tutition, but now he's lost 2 years at the regional, which is a net minus $270k. But, you also have to deduct any benefits, so lets say he was getting a 6% DC contribution, so that minus another 16k or so. So that's about $436k out of pocket, directly, without accounting for any return on those funds. He's starting off in an entirely new career, so he's getting the entry level of about $80k, and the median income for lawyers in his state is $135k. Assuming a direct line of increase from that to the median, call it 10k per year, he just gets back to what he was earning in 6 years, so that's another $180k lost, not including the lost DC contribution, as he gets back to even, and now he's 53.
So our guy is now down over $600k. That is exclusive of any return on investment for that money, and absolutely does not account for any home strife, hard work, lost nights & weekends and, oh, by the way, the new gig is 60 hours a week.
And this is the BEST case scenario (well, Joe could have made the jump younger). If his spouse didn't work, or made signficiantly less, that would have been a problem. We could have been into a recession when he got out of school, and not been able to find a firm. At some point someone says "yea, but Joe was a pilot. He could have made that a specialty". Yes, you're right, but that is a very niche area, already saturated with people who thought exactly the same thing. Sure, he could make a go of it, but again, that brings us back to being an outlier.
Of the "big numbers" professions, Law is actually the best case. Relatively low bar to entry, short school duration that can be made a little bit shorter, and an average, but not spectacular back end payout. Medicine is considerably worse. There is always a chance you get lucky in law, but you start so far behind the power curve in medicine, there is virtually no way to recover financially once past 35. MBAs, the other professional track, is also quite expensive for what it is, and you get in line with the millions of othe MBAs out there.
Science and engineering? Good thoughts. If you're going to be anything more than a pippet drone or school teacher, you'll need a PE or PHD. That's 7 years, minimum. The good news is that you don't really have to front the money for graduate school in STEM topics. The bad news is the pay during those years is catestrophic, and the back end even more so.
If you're jammed up, lost your medical and don't have a great disability option, then yea, it's sink or swim, and there's really no alternative. But if you're sitting in Omaha on a layover, and are fumming that the life "just isn't for you", then you'd best do the math before you make that decision.
I have three kids in their twenties all going or have gone to school for medicine, law and finance. These sentiments are almost identical to what I have heard them say at one point or another. Lucky for them they are all starting young so they will recoup and do well, but I wouldn’t wish a change into these fields past 40 on my enemy.
While our career is very important and has a high degree of responsibility, we make very good money for time spent working. I get it, time away from home is a cost factor but still, my buddies are all wishing they became pilots, not so much the other way around.
I have a friend working at Petco in upper management/marketing making less than me who doesn’t have time in his week to set a fantasy league draft order. He really is envious of my three days and done schedule.
08-14-2024, 07:53 AM
#33
Gets Weekends Off
Thread Starter
Joined APC: May 2023
Posts: 514
All sounds good until you put pencil to paper. I'm not talking about a internet course you do in your spare time that prints out a certificate at the end, but a no kidding career change. And God bless our military folks, but they come pre-baked with a "leadership and/or organization" degree, which, quite frankly, most places need.
Joe Donuts is 45 and is tired of flying, the constant ebb and flow of the industry, and hates being away from home. He wants to go out and become a lawyer. He's at a regional making $135/yr. He's got a wife and 2 kids. Wife works and makes the same amount of money. They're doing OK.
It's been a while since Joe was in school, but he buckles down and does ok on the LSAT. There are 8 law schools in his state, but only 1 near him, so that's pretty much the only choice. Hour commute each way. But, lucky him, it's a school that's at the national average of law school tuition, but is hardly a name brand school. So that will be $150k, without books, fees and extrania. He's going to hustle, because that clock is ticking, and do the summer terms, so he'll finish up in 2 calendar years. His wife is supportive, and picks up extra time and workload to make that happen.
He does OK. Not top 10, or even 10%, but does ok and passes the bar. The school he went to was hardly name brand, so there is zero premium added there. Now he's a 47 YO with a law degree and zero experience.
So lets add up some numbers. You've got $150k for the tutition, but now he's lost 2 years at the regional, which is a net minus $270k. But, you also have to deduct any benefits, so lets say he was getting a 6% DC contribution, so that minus another 16k or so. So that's about $436k out of pocket, directly, without accounting for any return on those funds. He's starting off in an entirely new career, so he's getting the entry level of about $80k, and the median income for lawyers in his state is $135k. Assuming a direct line of increase from that to the median, call it 10k per year, he just gets back to what he was earning in 6 years, so that's another $180k lost, not including the lost DC contribution, as he gets back to even, and now he's 53.
So our guy is now down over $600k. That is exclusive of any return on investment for that money, and absolutely does not account for any home strife, hard work, lost nights & weekends and, oh, by the way, the new gig is 60 hours a week.
And this is the BEST case scenario (well, Joe could have made the jump younger). If his spouse didn't work, or made signficiantly less, that would have been a problem. We could have been into a recession when he got out of school, and not been able to find a firm. At some point someone says "yea, but Joe was a pilot. He could have made that a specialty". Yes, you're right, but that is a very niche area, already saturated with people who thought exactly the same thing. Sure, he could make a go of it, but again, that brings us back to being an outlier.
Of the "big numbers" professions, Law is actually the best case. Relatively low bar to entry, short school duration that can be made a little bit shorter, and an average, but not spectacular back end payout. Medicine is considerably worse. There is always a chance you get lucky in law, but you start so far behind the power curve in medicine, there is virtually no way to recover financially once past 35. MBAs, the other professional track, is also quite expensive for what it is, and you get in line with the millions of other MBAs out there.
Science and engineering? Good thoughts. If you're going to be anything more than a pippet drone or school teacher, you'll need a PE or PHD. That's 7 years, minimum. The good news is that you don't really have to front the money for graduate school in STEM topics. The bad news is the pay during those years is catestrophic, and the back end even more so.
If you're jammed up, lost your medical and don't have a great disability option, then yea, it's sink or swim, and there's really no alternative. But if you're sitting in Omaha on a layover, and are fumming that the life "just isn't for you", then you'd best do the math before you make that decision.
Joe Donuts is 45 and is tired of flying, the constant ebb and flow of the industry, and hates being away from home. He wants to go out and become a lawyer. He's at a regional making $135/yr. He's got a wife and 2 kids. Wife works and makes the same amount of money. They're doing OK.
It's been a while since Joe was in school, but he buckles down and does ok on the LSAT. There are 8 law schools in his state, but only 1 near him, so that's pretty much the only choice. Hour commute each way. But, lucky him, it's a school that's at the national average of law school tuition, but is hardly a name brand school. So that will be $150k, without books, fees and extrania. He's going to hustle, because that clock is ticking, and do the summer terms, so he'll finish up in 2 calendar years. His wife is supportive, and picks up extra time and workload to make that happen.
He does OK. Not top 10, or even 10%, but does ok and passes the bar. The school he went to was hardly name brand, so there is zero premium added there. Now he's a 47 YO with a law degree and zero experience.
So lets add up some numbers. You've got $150k for the tutition, but now he's lost 2 years at the regional, which is a net minus $270k. But, you also have to deduct any benefits, so lets say he was getting a 6% DC contribution, so that minus another 16k or so. So that's about $436k out of pocket, directly, without accounting for any return on those funds. He's starting off in an entirely new career, so he's getting the entry level of about $80k, and the median income for lawyers in his state is $135k. Assuming a direct line of increase from that to the median, call it 10k per year, he just gets back to what he was earning in 6 years, so that's another $180k lost, not including the lost DC contribution, as he gets back to even, and now he's 53.
So our guy is now down over $600k. That is exclusive of any return on investment for that money, and absolutely does not account for any home strife, hard work, lost nights & weekends and, oh, by the way, the new gig is 60 hours a week.
And this is the BEST case scenario (well, Joe could have made the jump younger). If his spouse didn't work, or made signficiantly less, that would have been a problem. We could have been into a recession when he got out of school, and not been able to find a firm. At some point someone says "yea, but Joe was a pilot. He could have made that a specialty". Yes, you're right, but that is a very niche area, already saturated with people who thought exactly the same thing. Sure, he could make a go of it, but again, that brings us back to being an outlier.
Of the "big numbers" professions, Law is actually the best case. Relatively low bar to entry, short school duration that can be made a little bit shorter, and an average, but not spectacular back end payout. Medicine is considerably worse. There is always a chance you get lucky in law, but you start so far behind the power curve in medicine, there is virtually no way to recover financially once past 35. MBAs, the other professional track, is also quite expensive for what it is, and you get in line with the millions of other MBAs out there.
Science and engineering? Good thoughts. If you're going to be anything more than a pippet drone or school teacher, you'll need a PE or PHD. That's 7 years, minimum. The good news is that you don't really have to front the money for graduate school in STEM topics. The bad news is the pay during those years is catestrophic, and the back end even more so.
If you're jammed up, lost your medical and don't have a great disability option, then yea, it's sink or swim, and there's really no alternative. But if you're sitting in Omaha on a layover, and are fumming that the life "just isn't for you", then you'd best do the math before you make that decision.
I will second the comment above that it is a good scenario for someone to consider who is actually thinking of totally leaving the industry.
08-14-2024, 12:32 PM
#35
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Joined APC: Dec 2022
Posts: 312
08-14-2024, 01:53 PM
#38
Line Holder
Joined APC: Apr 2019
Posts: 85
08-14-2024, 03:09 PM
#39
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Mar 2008
Posts: 3,910
The intent of the thread is doing the MBA while flying the line. There is no opportunity cost of lost salary because that is absolutely not something I'd consider. The cost would be the cost of the MBA $25-150k plus the opportunity cost of not investing that money (which is something).
I will second the comment above that it is a good scenario for someone to consider who is actually thinking of totally leaving the industry.
I will second the comment above that it is a good scenario for someone to consider who is actually thinking of totally leaving the industry.
On-line schools tick a box, nothing more. Go into it eyes open, then good on you, more education is more better. But never pretend that it's something it's not.
If you want hiring mojo for income replacement, you need to be in person, shaking hands and making drinking buddies. That's where the power is and where the deals happen.
08-14-2024, 03:18 PM
#40
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Mar 2008
Posts: 3,910
I knew a few people who did it during the lost decade of the naughties. The smart ones saw the suck coming and bagged out the entire 10 years of their furlough limit to do other stuff. Med school, law school, start their own business, a restaurant, dry cleaners, etc. Every one came back once their time ran out.
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