Delta vs American (newbie)
06-21-2024, 07:40 AM
#71
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Joined APC: Jun 2024
Posts: 3
I'm not sure it's particularly common for DL pilots to commute from LA to ATL for a WB, especially since the 350 is in LAX, and it's fairly junior. Personally, I think a cross country commute just to do more Europe and JoBurg is bonkers. Sydney and Asia are great destinations, and it's a drive to work... No brainer there, IMO.
At DL, there was a very short period where WB were handed out to NH's. However, this was due to a confluence of unique factors which are no longer in place. I do not expect to ever see a international-only WB be available to a NH at DL ever again. Currently, it takes somehwere in the low 70's% to hold WB FO. At least for planning purposes, I don't expect that to change very much, even with lots of new WB deliveries over the next few years. However, it is possible to get what DL calls the 7ER category, which is the legacy 757 and 767-300 combined category. (at DL, the 767-400 is a separate category and flies essentially international only) There are plenty of NH's who get the 7ER, and with some flexibility, do a fair amount of 767 International flying. But definitely expect to do more domestic 757.
At DL, there was a very short period where WB were handed out to NH's. However, this was due to a confluence of unique factors which are no longer in place. I do not expect to ever see a international-only WB be available to a NH at DL ever again. Currently, it takes somehwere in the low 70's% to hold WB FO. At least for planning purposes, I don't expect that to change very much, even with lots of new WB deliveries over the next few years. However, it is possible to get what DL calls the 7ER category, which is the legacy 757 and 767-300 combined category. (at DL, the 767-400 is a separate category and flies essentially international only) There are plenty of NH's who get the 7ER, and with some flexibility, do a fair amount of 767 International flying. But definitely expect to do more domestic 757.
As for the hiring pause, I'm still not really familiar with how this aviation industry exactly works. But I can tell you from my experience in the tech industry during the mass layoffs (fortunately, I wasn't affected by it) that it's probably just a market correction, heading back to pre-COVID levels. In another 5 years, there may be another rise.
Maybe they're even re-evaluating their Boeing orders, etc.
06-21-2024, 10:38 AM
#72
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Joined APC: Dec 2019
Posts: 194
The big question is "why the pause?" Aircraft delivery issues and an increasing manning surplus because hiring/training has to lead deliveries by 4-6 months makes sense.
If the pause is because there's other changes coming it's troubling.
Cutting hiring now, due to a/c delivery issues, doesn't mean hiring won't go back to the 2800 (?) next year. Is the 2800 just a planned 2xxx + the end of 2024 hiring that just got cancelled? An 18 month plan to have the pilots to be in place for (hopefully) more deliveries as the Boeing/Airbus backog regains a more predictable momentum.
If the pause is because there's other changes coming it's troubling.
Cutting hiring now, due to a/c delivery issues, doesn't mean hiring won't go back to the 2800 (?) next year. Is the 2800 just a planned 2xxx + the end of 2024 hiring that just got cancelled? An 18 month plan to have the pilots to be in place for (hopefully) more deliveries as the Boeing/Airbus backog regains a more predictable momentum.
We need a new strategy.
06-21-2024, 03:25 PM
#73
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Joined APC: Mar 2014
Posts: 3,223
The big question is "why the pause?" Aircraft delivery issues and an increasing manning surplus because hiring/training has to lead deliveries by 4-6 months makes sense.
If the pause is because there's other changes coming it's troubling.
Cutting hiring now, due to a/c delivery issues, doesn't mean hiring won't go back to the 2800 (?) next year. Is the 2800 just a planned 2xxx + the end of 2024 hiring that just got cancelled? An 18 month plan to have the pilots to be in place for (hopefully) more deliveries as the Boeing/Airbus backog regains a more predictable momentum.
If the pause is because there's other changes coming it's troubling.
Cutting hiring now, due to a/c delivery issues, doesn't mean hiring won't go back to the 2800 (?) next year. Is the 2800 just a planned 2xxx + the end of 2024 hiring that just got cancelled? An 18 month plan to have the pilots to be in place for (hopefully) more deliveries as the Boeing/Airbus backog regains a more predictable momentum.
If WOs keep hiring, this might combine several factors:
.
- WO's are at min staffing and need the manpower especially over summer peak, which means no AA hiring and no flows. Keep in mind we are at a pre-covid high for number of departures, and pilots on property. Things are still good.
- We've hired enough for retirements for 2024. No one is going backwards on the list here.
- Performance $$ metrics aren't great, and we need to sort out our booking issues to get revenue up, so time to take a breather from pushing the red line where we've been at for several years.
- We've pushed back deliveries and some like the promised 321xlr, look like they may get delayed even more. Since we hired for >retirements over the past few years, we collectively have a surplus. Anecdotally of course, but premium is no where near where it was in 2023, let alone 2022 where it flowed like water.
- As a consequence of all the above, they delayed classes.
FWIW I believe the C-suite here has proven themselves to be fairly good at making long term plans. I have not lost faith in them, yet. Now, if the firing of Vasu doesn't turn things around, then yes things are not looking hot. Hopefully Isom has Parker on speed dial (I'm sure he's phoning a friend on this).
06-21-2024, 03:57 PM
#74
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Joined APC: Feb 2019
Position: baller, shot caller
Posts: 1,010
Thanks for clarifying!
As for the hiring pause, I'm still not really familiar with how this aviation industry exactly works. But I can tell you from my experience in the tech industry during the mass layoffs (fortunately, I wasn't affected by it) that it's probably just a market correction, heading back to pre-COVID levels. In another 5 years, there may be another rise.
Maybe they're even re-evaluating their Boeing orders, etc.
As for the hiring pause, I'm still not really familiar with how this aviation industry exactly works. But I can tell you from my experience in the tech industry during the mass layoffs (fortunately, I wasn't affected by it) that it's probably just a market correction, heading back to pre-COVID levels. In another 5 years, there may be another rise.
Maybe they're even re-evaluating their Boeing orders, etc.
For instance, in my time working as a professional pilot I made anywhere from 20k-40k/year for about the first decade. Then I went up low-mid 100k for a couple of years in the late 2010s, and after that 200k+ starting around 2020.
I've either been broke as a joke scraping by paycheck to paycheck, or living quite easily on 50% (or less) of my take home pay. For me personally there has never been any kind of middle ground.
This is an industry of extremes.
Last edited by SSlow; 06-21-2024 at 04:33 PM.
06-22-2024, 05:15 AM
#75
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Joined APC: Dec 2007
Position: Window seat
Posts: 5,479
2800 was a stupid rumor posted by somebody on this thread in probably one of the quickest "well this aged poorly" posts in the history of the internet, which is why they haven't been back since. Honestly I highly doubt AA has the training capacity for 2800 in a year. The hard number I heard was 2200 but that seemed to be a little much. It doesn't take long when we are running full INDOC classes for fleet training wait times to climb to 10 to 15 weeks and at that point AA will put a few month "pause" on hiring. Especially during the summer when they want to keep their CA Flows flying at the WOs.
Summer has the highest flying demand. Reducing training has been a way to get a double bump - fewer guys in training and more CKA available to fly the line.
06-24-2024, 06:46 AM
#76
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Joined APC: Dec 2018
Posts: 384
The big question is "why the pause?" Aircraft delivery issues and an increasing manning surplus because hiring/training has to lead deliveries by 4-6 months makes sense.
If the pause is because there's other changes coming it's troubling.
Cutting hiring now, due to a/c delivery issues, doesn't mean hiring won't go back to the 2800 (?) next year. Is the 2800 just a planned 2xxx + the end of 2024 hiring that just got cancelled? An 18 month plan to have the pilots to be in place for (hopefully) more deliveries as the Boeing/Airbus backog regains a more predictable momentum.
If the pause is because there's other changes coming it's troubling.
Cutting hiring now, due to a/c delivery issues, doesn't mean hiring won't go back to the 2800 (?) next year. Is the 2800 just a planned 2xxx + the end of 2024 hiring that just got cancelled? An 18 month plan to have the pilots to be in place for (hopefully) more deliveries as the Boeing/Airbus backog regains a more predictable momentum.
Allowing one flight attendant group to strike at a large legacy carrier, while certainly disruptive to the economy, won't have the same effect on the broader economy as most all freight train engineers/conductors.
Last edited by BrazilBusDriver; 06-24-2024 at 07:09 AM. Reason: Finished typing out the thought
06-25-2024, 08:57 PM
#77
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Joined APC: Feb 2023
Posts: 15
06-26-2024, 05:52 AM
#78
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Joined APC: Mar 2021
Posts: 1,737
I am no expert, however I saw this post and it had me wondering - from what I can tell AAL has a 787 buy with options for up to 86 tails. I have no way to verify the data presented of course and YMMV, but if it is true it seems to me that we are seeing deliberate growth in the WB market (albeit slow/cautious growth with a potential to ramp it up if the conditions are correct).
06-26-2024, 09:20 AM
#79
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Joined APC: Dec 2019
Posts: 194
Both airlines are accepting widebody deliveries, but American has 0 widebody aircraft being retired through 2030. Delta has 43 widebody being retired through 2030.
TLDR - go to United if you want widebody.
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