The pilot shortage is over:
04-21-2024, 03:26 PM
#421
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Joined APC: Dec 2007
Position: Window seat
Posts: 5,482
How about taking the reduced 50 hour guarantee during COVID at my regional? I am not seeking credit or seeking praise and you're right in the sense that if going down to 50 hours causes too much strain on me I would probably would not have done it. But I absolutely believed in doing what I could to help those below me.
There is a limit, but I am all for reasonable measures like the agreements that came about during COVID to prevent a furlough( with the exception of AA.....).
There is a limit, but I am all for reasonable measures like the agreements that came about during COVID to prevent a furlough( with the exception of AA.....).
04-21-2024, 03:27 PM
#422
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Joined APC: Sep 2011
Posts: 4,816
Even the guys hired today, with the large block of recent hires ahead of them, are projected to have much better careers than the careers of a bunch of the 1980 and 1990 hires. Pay rate back then? Adjusts to $117/hr today. So his 12th year FO pay is less than 2nd year pay today. That's before soul crushing stagnation.
Actually guys hired today might have better careers than guys hired 30 years ago. Thirty years ago was 1994. The big winners back then were the 1984-1987/88/89 hires. 1992 new hire will have about 3-5 yrs as a w/b Captain at AA.
Actually guys hired today might have better careers than guys hired 30 years ago. Thirty years ago was 1994. The big winners back then were the 1984-1987/88/89 hires. 1992 new hire will have about 3-5 yrs as a w/b Captain at AA.
04-21-2024, 03:28 PM
#423
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Joined APC: Mar 2021
Posts: 1,739
Short term. But later this decade, the Pilot shortage will raise its ugly head. Boeing will get their act together and be able to get plane deliveries going again. Regionals will have that big sucking sound on their left seat. Retirement and growth are freight trains that cannot be stopped.
04-21-2024, 03:46 PM
#425
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Joined APC: Oct 2022
Posts: 130
Was that 50 hrs a month to stay home? Or a 50 hr line cap? Like you said don't want any agreement to benefit anyone at someone else's expensive...except pollyanna doesn't exist. Every decision has winners and losers. Flip the decision and you're just changing who's on the winner list and who's on the loser list.
It was essentially 50 hours to stay home as the only time I was activated off it was for my annual line check.
Our agreement was very well received by the pilot group once things unfolded. The junior people were concerned the senior guys would gobble up the 75 hour option leaving them with the 50 hour option when first announced, but the unions bet that the senior would either opt for the COLA or the 50 hour option paid off. That is what they did while the junior people that wanted to fly or needed that 75 hour pay got it.
And you're right, what I may find as reasonable, another doesn't. What I find be the limit, anothers limit is higher or lower. What I may find unreasonable, is viewed as reasonable. Nothing is perfect and is a matter of ones perspective. I just don't understand the view of since I had to go through it, so should you mentality.
04-21-2024, 03:51 PM
#426
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Joined APC: Jul 2013
Posts: 10,518
And actually, no. That's not even in the same ballpark of an analogy..
04-21-2024, 04:28 PM
#427
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Joined APC: Jul 2007
Posts: 3,764
A little hyperbole doesn't hurt anyone, right? I mean that's all the rage these days, particularly in political discussions. Money grab is on both sides, and you know it.
04-21-2024, 04:53 PM
#428
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Joined APC: Jan 2010
Position: Representing the REAL Delta
Posts: 857
What BS excuse would I be hiding behind? You nailed it when you said this was a money-grab, though I would more appropriately label it as a struggle between the two separate camps attempting a money-grab.
[Devil's Advocate] You could make an argument that your willingness to fly a jet for what you did contributed to a major decline of this profession. You could also make an argument that it was the senior pilots at mainline who sold out the junior ones to preserve what they had. Both could be and are probably true. Lessons learned.... you looked after your career - you were building your turbine PIC time to be competitive to apply at mainline, and you didn't give two feces whom you screwed over directly or indirectly... as long as you got yours. Now take that to the top level at the mainline... again, they didn't give two feces about whom they screwed over and how, for as long as they got theirs. Neither they, nor you cared about anyone else, but both of you looked after number 1. That's the par for the course. That's to be expected. Now fast forward, and still playing a devil's advocate... I literally benefit ZERO from being benevolent to your career progression. Put bluntly, I don't care if you get furloughed, stagnate in the right seat until kingdom come, or miss out on career movement that benefits you at my expense. Why should I? Do you not look out for number 1 in your world?
Still playing devil's advocate... let me put it another way. You finally made it to mainline. You made captain in record short time. You're fighting for your interests and are masking your own ambitions by wrapping them into an altruistic "fight" against those who stand in the way of your own career progression. And guess what? Good for you. Fight for your career. Fight for your interests, but don't blow sunshine up anyone's butt in that somehow your cause is righteous because it's not. It's no less self-serving than of that senior guy. You're simply envious of their position and you want it for yourself as soon as you can possibly get.
That's how the system is designed. I didn't design it, but I play in it just as you do and I literally get nothing out of looking out for your career interests just as you get nothing out of looking out for mine. Our interests may intersect at some point and we can collaborate on our mutual interests, but this clearly isn't a mutual interest. [/Devil's Advocate]
I do recognize I would benefit from the increased retirement age and I'm fine with that. However, my financial planning is looking to retire much earlier than any mandatory retirement age. I'm not taking sides in this. So I'm not wasting my time or energy writing to my Congressman and Senators either for or against it. I simply don't care, but I'm sick of the hypocrisy on both sides and in our society in general. Why is it so hard to call spade a spade?
[Devil's Advocate] You could make an argument that your willingness to fly a jet for what you did contributed to a major decline of this profession. You could also make an argument that it was the senior pilots at mainline who sold out the junior ones to preserve what they had. Both could be and are probably true. Lessons learned.... you looked after your career - you were building your turbine PIC time to be competitive to apply at mainline, and you didn't give two feces whom you screwed over directly or indirectly... as long as you got yours. Now take that to the top level at the mainline... again, they didn't give two feces about whom they screwed over and how, for as long as they got theirs. Neither they, nor you cared about anyone else, but both of you looked after number 1. That's the par for the course. That's to be expected. Now fast forward, and still playing a devil's advocate... I literally benefit ZERO from being benevolent to your career progression. Put bluntly, I don't care if you get furloughed, stagnate in the right seat until kingdom come, or miss out on career movement that benefits you at my expense. Why should I? Do you not look out for number 1 in your world?
Still playing devil's advocate... let me put it another way. You finally made it to mainline. You made captain in record short time. You're fighting for your interests and are masking your own ambitions by wrapping them into an altruistic "fight" against those who stand in the way of your own career progression. And guess what? Good for you. Fight for your career. Fight for your interests, but don't blow sunshine up anyone's butt in that somehow your cause is righteous because it's not. It's no less self-serving than of that senior guy. You're simply envious of their position and you want it for yourself as soon as you can possibly get.
That's how the system is designed. I didn't design it, but I play in it just as you do and I literally get nothing out of looking out for your career interests just as you get nothing out of looking out for mine. Our interests may intersect at some point and we can collaborate on our mutual interests, but this clearly isn't a mutual interest. [/Devil's Advocate]
I do recognize I would benefit from the increased retirement age and I'm fine with that. However, my financial planning is looking to retire much earlier than any mandatory retirement age. I'm not taking sides in this. So I'm not wasting my time or energy writing to my Congressman and Senators either for or against it. I simply don't care, but I'm sick of the hypocrisy on both sides and in our society in general. Why is it so hard to call spade a spade?
Its important to have mentors on the flight deck.
They want to save the industry from a collapse triggered by the shortage.
These reasons are 1 part fear and 3 parts crap but you get that.
So to your devils advocate I shouldn’t have become an airline pilot because the pay was so bad? My vision wasn’t 20/20, otherwise I would have went military. I should have changed career paths like some sort of martyr?
Some of the great example of seniors selling out the junior include:
B scales
Proliferation of RJs - which were allowed by mainline pilot groups. Albeit sometimes with a gun to their head.
At Delta, we previously had like 18 777s that had some really nice pay rates. However the 767 made a couple of dollars more than the 737. The rational was I’ll be senior enough to hold the 777 one day.
I vowed that when I showed up at mainline, I wouldn’t accept these types of sellouts.
We haven’t added a single RJ and actually have retired all 50 seaters.
We now have pay banding on all of our wide body's. More than 100 now.
When Delta came to us with the 2014 TA, we sent it back. I was flying with a dude that was 64 and was voting no because he wanted to leave things better than he had it. He lost money because of the failed TA.
You can look out for number one, no matter what. That’s entirely your prerogative. However, generally speaking the mindset of stepping on someone else is going away. Look at the general consensus of this thread regarding 67.
ALPA saw the vast majority of input showing that 67 was not supported. Which is why they took the stance they did.
Status quo at 65 isn't stepping on the seniors.
You do you, but I can tell you I’m not going to oppose school funding bills the day my kids graduate. My community is more important than a few dollars in taxes.
Last edited by cornbeef007; 04-21-2024 at 05:26 PM.
04-21-2024, 05:08 PM
#429
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Joined APC: Apr 2022
Posts: 1,161
sorry your two 737 carrier jobs were suboptimal.
04-21-2024, 05:11 PM
#430
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Joined APC: Jul 2013
Posts: 10,518
They aren't the same because the true analogy is there are bank customers and bank robbers. Me not wanting you to take all of our money for yourself is not a money grab. No one deserves to stay past 65. Just like bank robbers don't deserve the bank's money.
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