KLM 744, low landing SXM.
07-04-2007, 06:22 AM
#12
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Joined APC: Feb 2007
Posts: 226
Speaking of tight takeoff's, the 747 classic, and these pics.
Most of you have seen this, if not, enjoy.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=feGZ4l5fk4Q
Most of you have seen this, if not, enjoy.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=feGZ4l5fk4Q
07-04-2007, 09:39 AM
#13
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Joined APC: Jan 2007
Posts: 234
Trogol,
I'd respectfully take a different position on landing at SXM. I think risk-taker is a better label than "idiot".
I used to fly into SXM with TWA in the 757. IMHO, the 757 is the perfect airplane for the run. SXM is a high yield, moderate density route. The brakes and reversers on the 757 make the landing look easy, even with a fair amount of winds, the usually unorthodox arrivals, and the constant barrage of VFR targets trying to land at the same time you do.
Using max thrust on the 757, the chandelle-like departure towards the mountain is made with ease and if my memory serves me correct it's not uncommon to complete the chandelle manuever at an altitude of upwards to 6000 feet .
Fast forward to the KLM landing, I flew the 747 Classic, not the -400, but can tell you that when you're at 550-600K pounds landing weight, and sitting 40 feet in the air and staring at a postage stamp runway of 6800-7000 feet of landing distance available, it isn't as easy as it might look.
With the picture you get from sitting that high in the air, your last glimpse of the boundary fence may be at 200-250 feet above touchdown.
I believe from watching the video and hearing the increase in throttle just prior to landing that his mindset was he was going to approach the runway somewhat low, drag it in and touchdown as close to the numbers as possible, even though his calculated landing distance (probably) is based on landing in the touchdown zone using a max braking effort with no reversers. In the process I think he neglected to remember the following:
1. The fence
2. The importance of staying above Threshold Crossing Height (TCH). On the 747 classic, not the -400, I believe it was 47'. In the video I would wager his TCH was under 35'.
3. Vigilance of the Radar Altimeter as a cross reference to TCH.
All's well that ends well--and it made for a great video.
I'd respectfully take a different position on landing at SXM. I think risk-taker is a better label than "idiot".
I used to fly into SXM with TWA in the 757. IMHO, the 757 is the perfect airplane for the run. SXM is a high yield, moderate density route. The brakes and reversers on the 757 make the landing look easy, even with a fair amount of winds, the usually unorthodox arrivals, and the constant barrage of VFR targets trying to land at the same time you do.
Using max thrust on the 757, the chandelle-like departure towards the mountain is made with ease and if my memory serves me correct it's not uncommon to complete the chandelle manuever at an altitude of upwards to 6000 feet .
Fast forward to the KLM landing, I flew the 747 Classic, not the -400, but can tell you that when you're at 550-600K pounds landing weight, and sitting 40 feet in the air and staring at a postage stamp runway of 6800-7000 feet of landing distance available, it isn't as easy as it might look.
With the picture you get from sitting that high in the air, your last glimpse of the boundary fence may be at 200-250 feet above touchdown.
I believe from watching the video and hearing the increase in throttle just prior to landing that his mindset was he was going to approach the runway somewhat low, drag it in and touchdown as close to the numbers as possible, even though his calculated landing distance (probably) is based on landing in the touchdown zone using a max braking effort with no reversers. In the process I think he neglected to remember the following:
1. The fence
2. The importance of staying above Threshold Crossing Height (TCH). On the 747 classic, not the -400, I believe it was 47'. In the video I would wager his TCH was under 35'.
3. Vigilance of the Radar Altimeter as a cross reference to TCH.
All's well that ends well--and it made for a great video.
07-07-2007, 02:23 PM
#14
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Joined APC: Mar 2007
Position: PA18
Posts: 77
Another shot of a KLM landing at SXM...I'm suprised the threshold took it! 
http://www.airliners.net/open.file/1078027/L/
http://www.airliners.net/open.file/1078027/L/
07-07-2007, 02:47 PM
#15
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Position: RC-3 Seabee. Skipper of the A21 cutter.
Posts: 897
That guy definitely touched down on the chevrons. I'd say within at least 15 - 20 feet of the end. The wheels could have knocked a tall person down on the beach. Kudos to the pilot if he had it all under complete control.
07-08-2007, 10:19 PM
#16
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The touch down zone is generaly in the same position on most runways around the world. Having flown the classics I can tell you a lightly loaded 74 can easily operate into 7000 feet. There is NEVER any good reason not to land on the 1000 foot markers in a 747. This is just poor airmenship.
07-10-2007, 07:24 AM
#17
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Position: Captain, CRJ-200, ASA
Posts: 876
Here's an interesting one for you.
I flew with a Dutch FO yesterday who knows many, many KLM pilots. He also used to live in St Maartin and flew freight there. He told me there's a "contest" between the KLM and Air France pilots who regularly fly to SXM to see who can come the lowest over the fence without actually hitting it. Apprarently the winner gets a case of Champaigne. So that's why they always land short.
I flew with a Dutch FO yesterday who knows many, many KLM pilots. He also used to live in St Maartin and flew freight there. He told me there's a "contest" between the KLM and Air France pilots who regularly fly to SXM to see who can come the lowest over the fence without actually hitting it. Apprarently the winner gets a case of Champaigne. So that's why they always land short.
07-10-2007, 12:06 PM
#18
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Studio B to someday end up in St. Marteen.
Here's an interesting one for you.
I flew with a Dutch FO yesterday who knows many, many KLM pilots. He also used to live in St Maartin and flew freight there. He told me there's a "contest" between the KLM and Air France pilots who regularly fly to SXM to see who can come the lowest over the fence without actually hitting it. Apprarently the winner gets a case of Champaigne. So that's why they always land short.
I flew with a Dutch FO yesterday who knows many, many KLM pilots. He also used to live in St Maartin and flew freight there. He told me there's a "contest" between the KLM and Air France pilots who regularly fly to SXM to see who can come the lowest over the fence without actually hitting it. Apprarently the winner gets a case of Champaigne. So that's why they always land short.
I was able to witness a simular contest, actually the aftermath of a simular one once. Couple dudes in a corp. jet were betting on who could land closest to the edge of the runway. The result was the Cpt. hit the grass about 4 ft. from the beginning of a runway that was a couple ft. tall from the edge of the grass. Left main sheared, came through the left flap and removed the T/R on that engine. A/C slid off the runway and cleaned the PAPI system out smooth. Nicely done.
The only pos. outcome was that the pax (yes Virginia, there were pax on board), and crew walked away.
One has to wonder where this kind of stuff generates.
Next thing you know, CNN and Shep with FOX will be on their way to St. Mart. to explain why a 74 clipped a car and a fence, killing a few beach tourists/vacationers and destroying a perfectly good Boeing.
Pray this never comes to fruition.
07-10-2007, 05:52 PM
#19
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Joined APC: Mar 2006
Position: 737 FO
Posts: 158
Another shot of a KLM landing at SXM...I'm suprised the threshold took it!
http://www.airliners.net/open.file/1078027/L/
http://www.airliners.net/open.file/1078027/L/
The amazing thing is if you look right under the tail of that airplane there is a guy holding on to the fence for dear life. That guy could have gotten clocked.
07-12-2007, 07:59 AM
#20
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Position: PA18
Posts: 77
When my dad was getting his private, they were doing touch and goes a some backwater airport. Hardly the same thing as we're talking about, but as soon as they landed, some genius pulled onto the runway with a quad and tried to race them and ended up getting clocked by the wing. The incident made my dads instructer give up instructing he felt so bad. Luckily the kid was wearing a helmet and only ended up with a concussion.
On topic, here's a shot of the 74 a second or so later.
http://www.airliners.net/open.file/1078774/L/
On topic, here's a shot of the 74 a second or so later.
http://www.airliners.net/open.file/1078774/L/
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