COVID vaccine mandates
10-25-2022, 08:17 AM
#21
Prime Minister/Moderator
Joined APC: Jan 2006
Position: Engines Turn Or People Swim
Posts: 40,230
I can’t help but wonder about the eventual legal status of these requirements. Don’t get me wrong, I think you ought to be immunized if you haven’t already been immunized or had COVID (although there are few of those left) but the business rationale for making you take an immunization that neither stops you from getting or spreading an illness seems a little weak.
You can't prove a negative. So if an employee or customer (or their at-risk family member) dies from covid which they plausibly might have got at work, then the deep pockets will be the plaintiff's target. The employer can use their vax mandate (and any other safety measures they might have taken) as a defense... "we did everything we could".
On the flip side they have no liability for the vaccine, since the fed approved it and handles any claims of adverse events.
Also while the vaccines don't prevent the latest variants, they clearly still mitigate the severity so an employer could look at it as simply reducing absenteeism from potentially a few weeks to a few days. But I think it has more to do with liability.
10-25-2022, 09:03 AM
#22
Perennial Reserve
Joined APC: Jan 2018
Posts: 12,191
The rationale in the past may have been well intentioned: safety of employees and customers. The rationale today is rather obvious: Lawyers
You can't prove a negative. So if an employee or customer (or their at-risk family member) dies from covid which they plausibly might have got at work, then the deep pockets will be the plaintiff's target. The employer can use their vax mandate (and any other safety measures they might have taken) as a defense... "we did everything we could".
On the flip side they have no liability for the vaccine, since the fed approved it and handles any claims of adverse events.
Also while the vaccines don't prevent the latest variants, they clearly still mitigate the severity so an employer could look at it as simply reducing absenteeism from potentially a few weeks to a few days. But I think it has more to do with liability.
You can't prove a negative. So if an employee or customer (or their at-risk family member) dies from covid which they plausibly might have got at work, then the deep pockets will be the plaintiff's target. The employer can use their vax mandate (and any other safety measures they might have taken) as a defense... "we did everything we could".
On the flip side they have no liability for the vaccine, since the fed approved it and handles any claims of adverse events.
Also while the vaccines don't prevent the latest variants, they clearly still mitigate the severity so an employer could look at it as simply reducing absenteeism from potentially a few weeks to a few days. But I think it has more to do with liability.
https://www.cdc.gov/smallpox/clinici...on-images.html
I’m not sure companies ought to be making these sorts of decisions at all. Complying with international immunization requirements for countries they fly to? Sure.
Trying to force people to take immunizations for other purposes - including limiting healthcare costs or extraneous lawsuits from pax (really, are you going to insist the pax on all sides be immunized too? How about mandating pax flu shots?) - not so much.
Some games the only way you can win is to just not play.
I think the airline managements ought to just butt out of personal health decisions that aren’t backed up by actual work REQUIREMENTS. It’s clear that the “science” has just been too dang politicized recently and risk hasn’t been balanced with reward (or other risk, as our education system is now demonstrating).
10-25-2022, 09:50 AM
#23
Prime Minister/Moderator
Joined APC: Jan 2006
Position: Engines Turn Or People Swim
Posts: 40,230
The same rationale (?) could be used to require vaccination for monkeypox. But seriously, the only way to accomplish that currently would be to resume smallpox immunizations. Not sure the lawyers would care for that either. One case of eczema vaccinating would buy you a $hitload of liability.
But this isn't about rational rationale, it's about lawyers and juries.
I'm not saying employers *should* mandate the vaccine, I'm just telling you why some do.
Also in some demographics, they may do it simply to make their employees feel safe... if the employees are of the masker persuasion.
10-25-2022, 10:33 AM
#24
Banned
Joined APC: Jul 2021
Posts: 551
The rationale in the past may have been well intentioned: safety of employees and customers. The rationale today is rather obvious: Lawyers
You can't prove a negative. So if an employee or customer (or their at-risk family member) dies from covid which they plausibly might have got at work, then the deep pockets will be the plaintiff's target. The employer can use their vax mandate (and any other safety measures they might have taken) as a defense... "we did everything we could".
On the flip side they have no liability for the vaccine, since the fed approved it and handles any claims of adverse events.
Also while the vaccines don't prevent the latest variants, they clearly still mitigate the severity so an employer could look at it as simply reducing absenteeism from potentially a few weeks to a few days. But I think it has more to do with liability.
You can't prove a negative. So if an employee or customer (or their at-risk family member) dies from covid which they plausibly might have got at work, then the deep pockets will be the plaintiff's target. The employer can use their vax mandate (and any other safety measures they might have taken) as a defense... "we did everything we could".
On the flip side they have no liability for the vaccine, since the fed approved it and handles any claims of adverse events.
Also while the vaccines don't prevent the latest variants, they clearly still mitigate the severity so an employer could look at it as simply reducing absenteeism from potentially a few weeks to a few days. But I think it has more to do with liability.
While I see your point, it certainly looks like the pendulum is swinging hard to the other direction and it’s more likely potential applicants could have a lawsuit if employers continue to use vaccination as a hiring disqualifier.
From a litigation standpoint it’s much easier to prove discrimination in hiring practices than it is to prove someone died of covid as a direct result of not having a mandate. Interesting times…
10-25-2022, 12:59 PM
#25
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jul 2013
Posts: 10,567
New York State Supreme Court just ruled today that the government must rehire and give back pay to a couple thousand employees that were fired for not getting the jab citing that it would not have assured against spreading covid.
While I see your point, it certainly looks like the pendulum is swinging hard to the other direction and it’s more likely potential applicants could have a lawsuit if employers continue to use vaccination as a hiring disqualifier.
From a litigation standpoint it’s much easier to prove discrimination in hiring practices than it is to prove someone died of covid as a direct result of not having a mandate. Interesting times…
While I see your point, it certainly looks like the pendulum is swinging hard to the other direction and it’s more likely potential applicants could have a lawsuit if employers continue to use vaccination as a hiring disqualifier.
From a litigation standpoint it’s much easier to prove discrimination in hiring practices than it is to prove someone died of covid as a direct result of not having a mandate. Interesting times…
10-25-2022, 01:01 PM
#26
Perennial Reserve
Joined APC: Jan 2018
Posts: 12,191
For that matter, the next Congress may be mandating restoration of those kicked out of the military for refusing COVID as the price for passing a Defense budget. Everybody needs to choose carefully their hill they wish to die on.
These are interesting times - in the Chinese curse tradition.
10-25-2022, 04:12 PM
#27
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Dec 2011
Position: A320 FO
Posts: 1,034
Can anyone verify or add to this list as of October 2022 for vaccine mandates for pilots?
UPS - required hard to get exemption
Fedex - not required
Delta - required but you can get an exemption
United - required almost impossible to get an exemption
AA - required easy to get exemption
Southwest- required easy to get exemption
Jetblue- required hard to get exemption
Frontier- required easy to get exemption
Spirit - not required
Atlas- required hard to get exemption
Any updates appreciated. Now that even Canada has dropped their mandate it seems like the only reason there are mandates at all is the Executive Order.
UPS - required hard to get exemption
Fedex - not required
Delta - required but you can get an exemption
United - required almost impossible to get an exemption
AA - required easy to get exemption
Southwest- required easy to get exemption
Jetblue- required hard to get exemption
Frontier- required easy to get exemption
Spirit - not required
Atlas- required hard to get exemption
Any updates appreciated. Now that even Canada has dropped their mandate it seems like the only reason there are mandates at all is the Executive Order.
10-26-2022, 04:12 AM
#28
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: May 2021
Posts: 339
I can’t help but wonder about the eventual legal status of these requirements. Don’t get me wrong, I think you ought to be immunized if you haven’t already been immunized or had COVID (although there are few of those left) but the business rationale for making you take an immunization that neither stops you from getting or spreading an illness seems a little weak.
Eventually someone denied or deferred employment is going to get before a sympathetic judge and I’m not sure the company involved will like the result.
Eventually someone denied or deferred employment is going to get before a sympathetic judge and I’m not sure the company involved will like the result.
Plus watching the snowflakes squirm trying to get these exemptions of losing their jobs is hilarious.
10-26-2022, 06:59 AM
#29
Line Holder
Joined APC: Jul 2021
Posts: 93
Can anyone verify or add to this list as of October 2022 for vaccine mandates for pilots?
UPS - required hard to get exemption
Fedex - not required
Delta - required but you can get an exemption
United - required almost impossible to get an exemption
AA - required easy to get exemption
Southwest- required easy to get exemption
Jetblue- required hard to get exemption
Frontier- required easy to get exemption
Spirit - not required
Atlas- required hard to get exemption
Any updates appreciated. Now that even Canada has dropped their mandate it seems like the only reason there are mandates at all is the Executive Order.
UPS - required hard to get exemption
Fedex - not required
Delta - required but you can get an exemption
United - required almost impossible to get an exemption
AA - required easy to get exemption
Southwest- required easy to get exemption
Jetblue- required hard to get exemption
Frontier- required easy to get exemption
Spirit - not required
Atlas- required hard to get exemption
Any updates appreciated. Now that even Canada has dropped their mandate it seems like the only reason there are mandates at all is the Executive Order.
Sun Country - Required. Easy to get exemption
10-26-2022, 08:15 AM
#30
Perennial Reserve
Joined APC: Jan 2018
Posts: 12,191
ByChris Dolmetsch
October 25, 2022, 6:54 PM UTC@ChrisDolmetschNew York City was ordered to reinstate a group of sanitation workers fired for refusing to get a Covid-19 vaccine after a state court judge ruled the mandate was unlawful.
In an order dated Monday, a judge in Staten Island said the city health commissioner has the authority to issue public health mandates, but can’t create a new condition of employment for municipal employees, can’t prohibit them from reporting to work and can’t terminate employees.
October 25, 2022, 6:54 PM UTC@ChrisDolmetschNew York City was ordered to reinstate a group of sanitation workers fired for refusing to get a Covid-19 vaccine after a state court judge ruled the mandate was unlawful.
In an order dated Monday, a judge in Staten Island said the city health commissioner has the authority to issue public health mandates, but can’t create a new condition of employment for municipal employees, can’t prohibit them from reporting to work and can’t terminate employees.
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