Boeing Aviator

Filler.

This!

marcal

Just as an example, pilot costs at DL run roughly 4B and we were doing roughly 40-42B in revenue pre covid.

If we were just flying airplanes, no I don’t think it would be sustainable. However, ancillary revenues and credit card partnerships have enabled these types of compensation, not flying airplanes. As long as airlines can keep having creative ways in bring in additional revenue it could/should be sustainable.

DWC CAP10 USAF

It was asked back in post 316 and answered in 318

Thunder1

Im guessing top 10% in domicile as far as pay for F/Os. I know a CA in my domicile that will make ~ 625K this year.
gotta know the rules and be willing to play the game but working 14-ish days a month to clock 400K as a senior F/O at SWA was achievable this year.
and that was with zero profit sharing. When profit sharing returns those numbers get even better.

freezingflyboy

In fairness to Mach (who clearly didn't read before posting), my initial thought was this...


But the poster's numbers just seemed a little high

Gone Flying

0% DC is not a fair comparison because they had a pension plan that paid 60% of FAE for life if you retired at 60. It’s not like they did not get anything. I think DL also had a 401k match of 3% on top of the DB plan

I also understand the health insurance was free (about $650/month for a family now) and retiree medical was better

from what I have been told, big picture, pay rates were higher adjusted for inflation but soft time was not as high (rigs, premium, ect)

United didn’t actually see 2004 rates but I think delta did. And even if they didn’t, it’s not like their 2001-2003 rates sucked

John Carr

I made reference to it earlier;

It's attainable for right here, and right now. The things that Boiler mentioned combined with massive retirements starting to happen creates a labor shortage that is EASILY capitalized on as evidenced by this thread.

So don't get hung up on all the huge numbers, take a look at the lower numbers (seat/comparable airlines/longevity), etc. Also, look at most comments when seeing the higher numbers, "worked", "hustled", "premium", what have you.

You'll see plenty of 2+ year NB FO's from the "big six" that hit the high 100's/low 200's which is pretty standard for a pilot that's going to work, flying their line, and maximizing their time off/reducing commutes, etc.

And again, as I mentioned prior, if you were look at a thread like this for post 9/11 till about 2006, or summer/fall 2008 till economic recovery happened most pilots flight pay totals would be close to simply hourly guaranty per month X number of bid periods per year X hourly rate.

But to answer your question, "is it sustainable?"

That question was asked asked, AND ANSWERED after 9/11 and the fallout that ensued. Granted, that was a pretty catastrophic event and the airlines are much better braced to handle such events now vs. then.

Also, bear in mind. In the 90's multiple legacies got new contracts that could simply be summed up as just "meh". The UAL ESOP/contract 96(?) being one, and whatever DAL mid 90's contract as well.

Celeste3205

UPS Domestic 27yr CPT/Sim instructor
494k W2
34.8k B Plan contribution(12% up to IRS limit of 290k) We have no non-qualified plan, so for me it's effectively a 7% B plan.
Total 528.8k
220 block hours
Averaged 16 out of a 28 day pay period when working in training.
I think this is fairly representative of a training center type.

Gone Flying

sorry for the thread derail, but how much of your sim instructor group is CA vs FO vs non seniority list? (At DL, only the APDs are CAs, everyone else is an FO or non seniority list, is it the same at UPS?)

How does sim instructor pay work at UPS?

thanks

Celeste3205

Unfortunately, it's not a really simple answer due to the management structure at UPS. Without going into the two different entities (IPA and Management), all APDs are management. Sim and VPT (fixed based sims) instructors are both cpt and FOs. When new instructors are hired, they tend to hire FOs for obvious reasons. But CPTs are hired too. More importantly, for guys like me who've been teaching for decades, you're not sent back to the line when you upgrade. IPA types can do checking, but only MVs and PVs, assuming you're familiar with AQP training. As such, there are many like me hired as an FO and who have stayed on after upgrading, so there are lots of IPA CPT sim instructors. There are a few ground school, non-pilot types, who teach procedures and systems. Poorly. All sim instructors are either line or management pilots. Management mostly does CQ (recurrent) or LOEs. Initial and upgrade is seldom taught by non-IPA instructors. (at least on my fleet)

When we are working in training, we bid for pay. In other words, we go through the bid packet and pick out the lines with the highest credit value and bid in that order. Our min guarantee is 75 hours per 28 day pay period. Lately the lines have been built above guarantee, so there is some soft credit we get compensated for. For each instructional day we are given an override of $125, this amount hasn't changed in over 20 years, so many of us would like that addressed. If you do sim support, no override for you. We are obligated to teach 14 days out of 28. If you do more days you get 4 hours of pay for each event, plus the $125, if applicable. This can be quite nice if it's a short event. Think of a two hour refresher sim, ect. I would say most of us do it because we like to teach and the hours tend to be easier on the body, not so much for the pay.