Originally Posted by Seneca Pilot

The problem is that even if you only have an average of 30 to 40 miles daily that will take 8 to10 KWH at least to recharge. The average house currently uses about 30 KWH per day so you're adding a third to the electricity demand per EV for each house with one, two thirds if you have to charge two. If that happens over a relatively short period of time as is projected by the EV industry it is going to cost huge amounts of money to get there. We have had over one hundred years to get to the flimsy grid we have now. Double the demand and it falls apart. The cost will have to go up just to pay for the build out and the anti nuclear crowd is going to have to back off because solar and wind won't cut it.

I would hope we get to the point where everyone powers their own house with their own solar and battery set up but that is very expensive and needs way more adoption to become affordable to anyone but people like us in the top five percent of earners.

Originally Posted by Seneca Pilot

The difference in registration cost goes to the state. All states don't charge an EV fee. Even when they do, only some states charge enough to equal or exceed the gas tax equivalent. None of them replace the federal gas tax. Why does every argument have to be an insult, especially when your insult is based on incorrect statements. Yes I used the mileage number for the last 3 I looked at instead of googling it. I am not sitting here all day waiting to google every fact, especially since it isn't even important to the points being made..

I never said Teslas have low range. I never argued that EVs aren't more efficient. I am saying, what seems like a fairly uncontroversial thought, that the cost of driving EVs will rise over time due to higher costs for electric and the Federal Govt. taking their pound of flesh. Our free ride will end.

Originally Posted by atooraya

The federal government collects 18 cents per gallon of fuel pumped, which hasn’t been raised sine 1993. You create a carbon tax to offset the EV implementation for a green infrastructure plan.

Your statement was no model 3 gets 350 mile range, which was refutiated with a quick look at the Tesla website. You don’t have to google everything, but when you make non factual statements, you tend to lose credibility with your arguments. Unless you’re in politics of course.

Originally Posted by Seneca Pilot

Ok, let's unpack this:

First I don't understand why the internet seems to cause people to lose their courtesy but I will respond in kind.

I thought pilots understood math and the impact of government regulation and taxation on the price of goods.

There is no model 3 rated for 350 miles range. The long range is 310 and as we all know that is optimistic for any real life driving. My X is rated for 288 but realistically to have any contingency and to account for anything other than perfect weather and road conditions the safe number is 230-240.

Your lack of reading comprehension make you look like a stupid troll. I never said that the cost to operate an EV was triple. I said that I can see electricity tripling in the coming decades. I have stated in numerous posts that EVs are more efficient than gasoline vehicles and right now we get to take advantage of that difference to operate them at a lower overall cost. Most of you zealots leave out the inconvenient fact that the EV costs nearly double the price of an equivalent gas powered vehicle and that cost is offset by large EV tax credits to attempt to close the close the gap. Even with that government support it takes years to see a breakeven for the added cost. EVs are a luxury in the current market.

Yes, in 60 years the electricity use has only gone up 2.5 times. That is only 4% per year, a growth rate that is easily maintained without big price hikes by reasonable cap ex and the force of state electricity regulators mandating small increases in price. The projected growth of EVs is 29% per year compounded between now and 2030. That is seven times the historic growth of normal electric distribution. There is no plan to supply this much energy. The only source that we have that could possibly keep up with that steep increase in demand is nuclear but due to a strong anti nuclear lobby the last new plant was opened in 2016 after a 20 year gap. The average house only uses 30 KWH per day now and it takes 80 KWH to fully charge an EV. Every time a person buys an EV and installs a 1450 plug and charges their car each night, even with 30 KWH that doubles the household average.

Now we come to taxes. There is currently zero federal excise tax on electricity. The only taxes on it are local and state consumption or distribution taxes. Many of those taxes have gone to increasing the supply of power to keep rates low. With the decline in gasoline use the money for transportation infrastructure maintenance and expansion will have to come from somewhere. Pete Buttigieg is proposing a mileage tax. That tax will be over top of the current gas tax, this is the way of our government. Once gas is no longer in use the tax will be either shifted to electric distribution or the equivalent mileage tax added to make up for the loss of revenue. Given your number of 22.4 MPG average for gasoline vehicles the current federal excise tax is approximately 1.22 cents per mile traveled. For the federal government to match that rate with an EV the tax would have to go to about 6 cents per mile or about 24 cents per KWH

I am not sure where you came to the conclusion that I have argued at any point in this discussion that EVs are not more efficient than gasoline vehicles. Not once have I said that. You either cannot comprehend what I am posting or are not reading it and just assuming. Either way I have said all along that EVs are more efficient and that the federal government and the market will eventually charge us for that efficiency. If we disagree on that, fine that is up for discussion, but when you post a lie about my points then ridicule me for the lie you posted it just makes you look like an idiot.

I will continue to respond to you in the tone you use. If you are more civil and respectful I will return to that tone. I never berated you and I expect the same in return.

Originally Posted by Bluesideup1

You should stop while you are behind. You should really, really stop.

If you don't know much about a subject like telling people it costs 3 times as much to fill up an EV as it does to fill up an ICE car or that there is no model 3 that can go 350 miles you shouldn't be posting on the subject. These are simple google searches. This would be a good time to ask questions which I don't think anyone would have any problem with but since you are posting a lot of incorrect information acting like an authority on it when in fact you know very little is a good time to open your ears and keep your mouth shut.

I know if I talked to you in real life about this you would knock my head off but I doubt you don't go around spouting nonsense in real life like you do here so there probably wouldn't be a problem.

Originally Posted by Gunfighter

I never fully appreciated what that statement meant until after owning a Tesla for a few months. I used to waste so much time fueling, waiting in line for fuel (Costco) or just plain interrupting my drive to get fuel. Driving an electric is like having your own personal fuel butler in the garage. Wireless vehicle charging will even eliminate that 8 second interruption.

Taxes
WRT taxes, electric vehicles currently benefit from road taxes paid on fossil fuels. I can see where annual mileage taxes replace both state and federal fuel taxes. There will be too much pushback for an electricity tax, since most of it is used for purposes other than driving on roads. Discriminating between transportation usage of electricity vs other usage is problematic and will drive us toward an annual mileage tax or increased vehicle registration costs. The idea of subway riding city dwellers subsidizing roads via an electricity tax is dead in the water.

Current federal fuel taxes are around 1 cent per mile (18 cents per gallon). State taxes vary from 8 to 50 cents per gallon, but figure roughly double the federal tax. Between state and federal fuel taxes, consumers are paying 3 cents per mile or $3 per 100 miles. 100 miles worth of electricity ranges from 25-35kWh across the Tesla offerings. Using 30 kWh for simplicity sake, a tax of 10 cents per kWh (on transportation electricity) would generate the same $3 in taxes. This is almost as much as the cost of the electricity. We must pay for our roads, its just a matter of determining the best way.

I'm sure our elected representatives will be in favor of whichever method grants them more power and influence vs what is in the best interest of the constituency. Stand by for pet project funding...

Originally Posted by Seneca Pilot

Quote where I posted that it cost three times as much to fuel an EV. Talk about posting BS.

That is the third time you have misquoted me. It took two days for you to finally admit that you were talking out of your a** about crack spreads and now you are talking out of your a** again saying that I said it was more expensive to fuel an EV than gas. Troll.

Originally Posted by galaxy flyer

How does that work 270 miles into 540 mile day’s drive. Oh, you drive in 270 mile increments. How does the EV charge at -8F or drive at that temp? I got your math, except, as pointed out, you need to remove taxes from the gas equation to compare the two and I get about 30mpg better at less than 80mph. Add in my car is paid for, so no capital cost, I can fuel for a decade before I’d come close break even.

I don’t now where you live, but waiting for gas is unknown here. If I spend 2 minutes at a fuel island mid-way on a trip, I watching the flowers grow. If I spend 5 minutes at station, the line’s too long for coffee, I’m leaving.

Originally Posted by Bluesideup1

Here you go: "A gallon of gas contains about 33KWH. A gallon worth of electricity then is about $4.35. The fact is you are already paying more for a gallon of electric than gas." Are those not your words? Does that not say that I am paying more for a "gallon" of electric that I would for gas?

At $4.35 for a "gallon" of electricity shows that it is 3 times higher to fuel an EV to go the same distance to what an equivalent gallon would in an ICE car. In reality it is usually less than a $1 to get the same mileage as an equivalent ICE car.

Also, if you think what I posted was an admission that I was talking out of my ass about crack spread then god bless you.

Originally Posted by Seneca Pilot

The national average price per gallon of gas is currently $2.88. It contains 33KWH. Electricity is currently 13.7 cents per KWH. 13.7 X 33 = 4.52. Yes a "gallon of electricity costs more. You are confusing the distance with the price. The efficiency advantage of electric allows for more range for that gallon but the gallon costs more.

You are thick.