US Airways pilots "OK" EMB 190
10-05-2005, 04:28 AM
#11
Line Holder
Joined APC: May 2005
Position: 757/767 FO
Posts: 78
The sad part is , the Capt's pay rate on the 190 is less than the secretaries at ALPA national make. 
The 190 is a replacement for the DC-9's and 737's of the industry and ALPA is evedently glad to give them to management at pay rates well below the rates of the planes they are replacing. I voted NO!
The 190 is a replacement for the DC-9's and 737's of the industry and ALPA is evedently glad to give them to management at pay rates well below the rates of the planes they are replacing. I voted NO!
10-05-2005, 05:26 PM
#12
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Sep 2005
Posts: 463
Originally Posted by IronWalt
CalPilot,
As far as I am concerned, any flying that is done outside of a mainline carrier is lost ground. Anything that is brought back onto a major property is gained ground. Especially at pay rates approaching 90 bucks an hour.
If you have ever worked for a scum bag charter carrier making sub standard wages, flying sub standard under maintained airplanes, and endured pressure from management to exceed legal duty and flight times, then you will know what I am talking about.
Losing ground is caused by the stupidity of ALPA and it's members who:
1. Insist on separate seniority lists between pilot groups thus dividing the
groups and making managements job of diminishing the piloting career
2. Unbelieveable naivety of MEC members who believe they can send line
pilots into a negotiating room up against trained lawyers and
negotiators who do this for a living and are paid to get as much as they
out of your career and mine.
3. And finally who ever opened up the pandoras box of allowing majors to
code share with regionals flying RJs in the first place needs to be
fired from his current job and forced to fly an RJ for one of these
carriers and see how it really is.
I will bet ALPA allowed number 3 simply because it means more dues for them. More pilots, flying more airplanes means more money in the kitty for the boys at the top. But this screwed EVERYONE in the industry. From top to bottom in my opinion.
My two cents,
W
As far as I am concerned, any flying that is done outside of a mainline carrier is lost ground. Anything that is brought back onto a major property is gained ground. Especially at pay rates approaching 90 bucks an hour.
If you have ever worked for a scum bag charter carrier making sub standard wages, flying sub standard under maintained airplanes, and endured pressure from management to exceed legal duty and flight times, then you will know what I am talking about.
Losing ground is caused by the stupidity of ALPA and it's members who:
1. Insist on separate seniority lists between pilot groups thus dividing the
groups and making managements job of diminishing the piloting career
2. Unbelieveable naivety of MEC members who believe they can send line
pilots into a negotiating room up against trained lawyers and
negotiators who do this for a living and are paid to get as much as they
out of your career and mine.
3. And finally who ever opened up the pandoras box of allowing majors to
code share with regionals flying RJs in the first place needs to be
fired from his current job and forced to fly an RJ for one of these
carriers and see how it really is.
I will bet ALPA allowed number 3 simply because it means more dues for them. More pilots, flying more airplanes means more money in the kitty for the boys at the top. But this screwed EVERYONE in the industry. From top to bottom in my opinion.
My two cents,
W
First of all I was a charter pilot and freight dog. I also flew regional.
Secondly, I was always for the one seniority list at CAL and CALX.
Third, CA on a 90 seat aircraft should not be brought down to 90.00 bucks an hour at a mainline carrier. So again the profession continues to go backwards.
10-05-2005, 05:27 PM
#13
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Sep 2005
Posts: 463
Originally Posted by War Eagle 83
The sad part is , the Capt's pay rate on the 190 is less than the secretaries at ALPA national make. The 190 is a replacement for the DC-9's and 737's of the industry and ALPA is evedently glad to give them to management at pay rates well below the rates of the planes they are replacing. I voted NO!
The 190 is a replacement for the DC-9's and 737's of the industry and ALPA is evedently glad to give them to management at pay rates well below the rates of the planes they are replacing. I voted NO!
10-08-2005, 10:25 AM
#14
Guest
Posts: n/a
Iron,
I got a belly full of "perspective" flying for a garbage commuter for almost three years...starting pay was $14,400/year straight salary, regardless how many hours I flew. When I quit to go work for a big carrier, I was a third year Capt making $25,200/yr. This was a Part 135 carrier (before all of them were made Part 121) which meant the FAR flying hour limits were 34/7, 120/30, etc., so it was common to fly over 90 block hours per month. We had F/Os on food stamps. Also flew for the Air Force in war zones where bad guys were plinking at us, duty days were 18 hours plus and there were no FAR duty limits...whatever peacetime USAF duty day limits existed were waived since it was a combat environment. I got all the "perspective" I'll ever need. The point is that by the time pilots are hired at major carriers, they're hardly entry-level interns and deserve to be compensated in a way that reflects their experience...unfortunately pilots are their own worst enemies and the profession is under constant downward pressure. With the possible exception of SWA, the LCCs don't cut it and those guys are under-compensated whether they think so or not. The other posts were dead on when they talk about the $90,000 airline pilot academies cranking out neophyte pilots with big dreams and low expectations taking $19,000/year jobs. There will always be more young pilots willing to do the job for less as long as these mills keep cranking out RJ interns. How else do these start-ups get going? A 747 freight start-up pays their capts $98/hr while they're on the road 20 days/month or more, no work rules...yet they find pilots willing to do that job! The next phase of this downward spiral may ironically be the LCCs under pressure to cut their pilots' pay to match that of the bankrupt legacy carriers. It may change their perspective and sour the Kool-Aid....or at least shed light on the fact that they're being taken advantage of by high roller executives/investors. I'm amazed that Leonard and Neelman are cocky, like to talk smack, and have an air of invincibility about them. They're setting themselves up to fall hard. Keep it up guys. Conversely SWA's CEO talks about not getting complacent and managing operating costs. He recognizes it's hard to stay on top and is guarding against the arrogance other LCC CEOs show in their statements to the media. Hopefully this dismal cycle will pass and things will get better, but it'll take years for the profession to regain even a fraction of the ground lost.
I got a belly full of "perspective" flying for a garbage commuter for almost three years...starting pay was $14,400/year straight salary, regardless how many hours I flew. When I quit to go work for a big carrier, I was a third year Capt making $25,200/yr. This was a Part 135 carrier (before all of them were made Part 121) which meant the FAR flying hour limits were 34/7, 120/30, etc., so it was common to fly over 90 block hours per month. We had F/Os on food stamps. Also flew for the Air Force in war zones where bad guys were plinking at us, duty days were 18 hours plus and there were no FAR duty limits...whatever peacetime USAF duty day limits existed were waived since it was a combat environment. I got all the "perspective" I'll ever need. The point is that by the time pilots are hired at major carriers, they're hardly entry-level interns and deserve to be compensated in a way that reflects their experience...unfortunately pilots are their own worst enemies and the profession is under constant downward pressure. With the possible exception of SWA, the LCCs don't cut it and those guys are under-compensated whether they think so or not. The other posts were dead on when they talk about the $90,000 airline pilot academies cranking out neophyte pilots with big dreams and low expectations taking $19,000/year jobs. There will always be more young pilots willing to do the job for less as long as these mills keep cranking out RJ interns. How else do these start-ups get going? A 747 freight start-up pays their capts $98/hr while they're on the road 20 days/month or more, no work rules...yet they find pilots willing to do that job! The next phase of this downward spiral may ironically be the LCCs under pressure to cut their pilots' pay to match that of the bankrupt legacy carriers. It may change their perspective and sour the Kool-Aid....or at least shed light on the fact that they're being taken advantage of by high roller executives/investors. I'm amazed that Leonard and Neelman are cocky, like to talk smack, and have an air of invincibility about them. They're setting themselves up to fall hard. Keep it up guys. Conversely SWA's CEO talks about not getting complacent and managing operating costs. He recognizes it's hard to stay on top and is guarding against the arrogance other LCC CEOs show in their statements to the media. Hopefully this dismal cycle will pass and things will get better, but it'll take years for the profession to regain even a fraction of the ground lost.
10-08-2005, 10:51 AM
#15
Guest
Posts: n/a
Originally Posted by B767flyr
Iron,
I'm amazed that Leonard and Neelman are cocky, like to talk smack, and have an air of invincibility about them. They're setting themselves up to fall hard. Keep it up guys. Conversely SWA's CEO talks about not getting complacent and managing operating costs. He recognizes it's hard to stay on top .
I'm amazed that Leonard and Neelman are cocky, like to talk smack, and have an air of invincibility about them. They're setting themselves up to fall hard. Keep it up guys. Conversely SWA's CEO talks about not getting complacent and managing operating costs. He recognizes it's hard to stay on top .
Funny, I listen to David Neeleman all the time and I always am impressed by his thoughts on keeping costs low, not ever getting complacent with customer loyalty and so on.. I never think he comes off cocky, more just matter of factly. I guess its all in want you expect or want to hear.
10-08-2005, 01:31 PM
#16
Guest
Posts: n/a
Originally Posted by banger
Funny, I listen to David Neeleman all the time and I always am impressed by his thoughts on keeping costs low, not ever getting complacent with customer loyalty and so on.. I never think he comes off cocky, more just matter of factly. I guess its all in want you expect or want to hear.
Thanks for clearing that up for me, but in the past, both Neelman and Leonard occasionally can't help themselves, talk trash and come across smug about their companies'...not all the time. If you haven't noticed, then I guess it's all in what you expect or want to hear, especially as someone who professes to "listen to David Neelman all the time". I caught a few sound bites here ant there and it came through loud and clear. We can agree to disagree. I have no loyalty to these airline bosses, including the ones I work for since they're free agent hired guns, so I call 'em like I see 'em. If you wanna hang a Neelman picture next to your Hasselhoff poster, feel free. If you work for the guy, I hope for your sake he is a decent sort and merely let his ego get in the way a few times and shot his mouth off. Too many of these executives are the type who'd cut your pay to minumum wage if they could get away with it.
10-08-2005, 02:20 PM
#17
Line Holder
Joined APC: Jul 2005
Position: A320 Left seat
Posts: 44
The important words
The important words you stated are 'I caught a few sound bites here'. ANYONE can sound cocky or arrogant or saintly or devilish or whatever from a well picked sound bite.
Just look at political ads.
Overall I'd place David Neeleman as cautiously optomistic.
Just look at political ads.
Overall I'd place David Neeleman as cautiously optomistic.
10-08-2005, 06:50 PM
#18
Guest
Posts: n/a
Originally Posted by B767flyr
Banger,
Too many of these executives are the type who'd cut your pay to minumum wage if they could get away with it.
Too many of these executives are the type who'd cut your pay to minumum wage if they could get away with it.
10-09-2005, 06:42 AM
#19
Guest
Posts: n/a
B6 and Hanger,
"well picked sound bites".... High profile folks like CEOs who talk to the media regularly ought to be savvy enough to realize reporters live on sound bites, and many times report interviews/news in that 15-30 second audio context. I've heard DL and AT's Leonard talk like the cocky, undefeated varsity letterman who's just beaten the Goliath-like rival team, got the world by the tail, and all I'm saying is that's ill-advised in the airline business where almost every company has it's turn in tough times eventually. Hooray for you if you can have such confidence in an executive, and better yet if you can work for one that inspires such faith. It's a rare thing in this industry since so many airline CEOs have little or no history/loyalty with the companies they run and lack a basic ethical responsibility to treat their employees with respect.
"well picked sound bites".... High profile folks like CEOs who talk to the media regularly ought to be savvy enough to realize reporters live on sound bites, and many times report interviews/news in that 15-30 second audio context. I've heard DL and AT's Leonard talk like the cocky, undefeated varsity letterman who's just beaten the Goliath-like rival team, got the world by the tail, and all I'm saying is that's ill-advised in the airline business where almost every company has it's turn in tough times eventually. Hooray for you if you can have such confidence in an executive, and better yet if you can work for one that inspires such faith. It's a rare thing in this industry since so many airline CEOs have little or no history/loyalty with the companies they run and lack a basic ethical responsibility to treat their employees with respect.
10-09-2005, 08:08 AM
#20
Guest
Posts: n/a
Originally Posted by banger
When I have met and listened to him, I don't always like what he says or agree with what he does. However I have always trusted him and when he says something I believe him.
That will change as it always does... Things are moving, people are upgrading, yada yada yada.... Give it time... Things will slow down or even stop. Or worse! Have fun while you can! Read some books! Flying the line, Hard Landings.... Good luck!
Orca
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