SonicFlyer

Democracy is a bad thing. Why? Because it means the rights of others are subject to minority rule. Try being a minority or a homosexual in a democracy. Or being an atheist. Or just someone who isn't well liked. A republic respects the primacy of the individual and protects against tyranny of the majority (democracy). In a republic there is a rule of law, in a democracy the law is whatever the majority decides it is at the moment.

NEDude

They are still not socialist countries. In socialism the means of production and distribution are controlled by the State. Although there are elements of socialism in most western democracies, especially in the areas of healthcare and education, overwhelmingly the economies in those countries are driven by private enterprise, i.e. capitalism. Including in Switzerland and New Zealand.

NEDude

So...in a Republic like the United States, discrimination does not occur? Minorities and homosexuals have been protected? I think you need to examine your history a bit more.

C130driver

Compared to the "Utopias" in Europe many gloat about: Low income taxes, guns, freedom of speech (see many western countries in Europe,) freedom and flexibility to own a business without being taxed to death, smaller beaurocracies..all relatively speaking of course. Of course many of these freedoms ebb and flow and obviously vary from state to state but having visited and know people in many of these countries I would say we are towards the top in the "freedom" aspect.

Now, I'm not saying these are the things everyone values, I mean some people like living in a state like New York or a city like Manhattan where they pay 3 taxes and owning something like a gun or starting a business is almost insurmountable.

SonicFlyer

Well the US is supposed to be a republic, but the government doesn't actually function as one.

Also remember that much of the discrimination against minorities was actually institutionalized and codified in to law (Jim Crow laws). People were punished by the government for not discriminating.

NEDude

Freedom of speech is widely protected within most western democracies. It is not unique to the United States. Contrary to popular belief, there are restrictions on freedom of speech in the United States too. Specifically the Supreme Court has upheld so-called "time, place, and manner" restrictions. Examples include cordoned off "free speech" zones and the famous example of not being able to yell "fire" in a crowded theater. As recently as 2014, the Supreme Court has stated that the First Amendment "does not guarantee the right to communicate one’s views at all times and places or in any manner that may be desired." (See The City of Chicago v. Alexander)

Most Western European countries have significantly lower business tax rates than the United States. The World Bank's 2016 report on small business rated the United States 7th as the best place to do business behind four other western style democracies plus Hong Kong and Singapore. In fact the United States has the highest corporate tax rate among the 35 OECD countries. So you may want to try again when talking about businesses in other countries being "taxed to death".

I certainly cannot argue the guns issue. We could argue the cost vs benefits of guns until the cows come home. But in terms of the freedom to own guns, no argument from me about the U.S. being tops there.

But overall, in terms of personal freedoms, the Libertarian and free market oriented think tank the Cato Institute ranks the United States 23rd in the world. 8 of the top 10 countries are Western European countries (including my country of residence). You may have visited other countries, and know people from other countries, but I actually live it. I have lived and worked on three continents, and hold citizenship in both the United States and a western EU country. I can tell you from personal experience, and the data backs me up, that the United States is nowhere near unique nor the best in terms of guarantees of personal freedom.

SonicFlyer

I know what you're referring to but I think that is only in regards to economic liberty not necessarily personal liberty.

StrykerB21

Whats your ideal economic model?

kevbo

I think 1950s USA, before the unfettered Cold War buildup was a much more sustainable model. Even better, pre 1990s Austraila. Humans, by and large, are too simple and reactionary to create lasting Utopias. We don't know what we want beyond the desire to feast, fight, and f-ck.

StrykerB21

So capitalism.