Anyone getting hired without a degree?
05-29-2017, 02:47 PM
#161
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Joined APC: Mar 2006
Position: guppy CA
Posts: 5,171
You guys are ridiculous, really. A guy comes on here and asks if anyone is getting hired without a degree and instead of anyone answering the question he's met with a bunch of childish insults.
To the O.P. it appears that pretty much all of the regionals and most of the are LCC's are hiring guys without a degree.
From what I've heard, Southwest has hired a handful of guys without a degree but that is rare. The same could be said for United.
I think its fair to say that you'd have a snowball in hells chance of getting hired at Delta without a degree though.
As most people have rightly stated on here, if the legacies are your ultimate goal a degree is pretty much a necessity. Maybe that will change in the future but that's pure speculation.
However, if you're happy seeing out your career at an LCC or a even a regional, a degree is not necessarily a requirement.
To the O.P. it appears that pretty much all of the regionals and most of the are LCC's are hiring guys without a degree.
From what I've heard, Southwest has hired a handful of guys without a degree but that is rare. The same could be said for United.
I think its fair to say that you'd have a snowball in hells chance of getting hired at Delta without a degree though.
As most people have rightly stated on here, if the legacies are your ultimate goal a degree is pretty much a necessity. Maybe that will change in the future but that's pure speculation.
However, if you're happy seeing out your career at an LCC or a even a regional, a degree is not necessarily a requirement.
05-29-2017, 03:05 PM
#162
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Joined APC: Sep 2013
Posts: 684
05-29-2017, 08:46 PM
#165
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Joined APC: Mar 2006
Position: guppy CA
Posts: 5,171
Sevenfreakingteen now. That's page 17 for a very, very stupid neverending question. People that ask this question should not be coddled and shown 'safe spaces;' they should be ridiculed as they're publicly tarred and feathered.
You have to be mentally challenged to even think that you can compete without a 4 year degree. While some may cater to this childish school of thought ('I don't need a degree to be a pylot'), most of us realize that a 4 year degree's a (semi) hard requirement to get a job as a pilot at the majors, LCCs, ULCCs, and regionals. Pointing to the unicorn as the norm is just plain stupid. Thanks for your contributions in making APC a more stupid place to visit.
You have to be mentally challenged to even think that you can compete without a 4 year degree. While some may cater to this childish school of thought ('I don't need a degree to be a pylot'), most of us realize that a 4 year degree's a (semi) hard requirement to get a job as a pilot at the majors, LCCs, ULCCs, and regionals. Pointing to the unicorn as the norm is just plain stupid. Thanks for your contributions in making APC a more stupid place to visit.
05-29-2017, 10:21 PM
#166
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Joined APC: Oct 2010
Position: 145
Posts: 219
All due respect, Your number of 12,000 UN apps seems to conflict with others on various threads. A few years ago, before hiring started to pick up, there were 10,000 (some reported 11,000) apps with the majors. These were unique pilots, most had apps in several places.
Recent information is being reported AA is down to just under 5,000 and SW is at 3,000. I wonder if the 12,000 with UN is old data. It would be hard to believe UN now has a few more when AA and SW have a lot less.
Current hiring numbers for the 6 majors (AA, UN, DL, SW, UPS, and FedEx) is forecast at 3,500 for this year. As retirements ramp up in the next few years this is projected to increase to 6,000 a year and hold steady for a decade (or more).
I have heard various percentages coming from the military. So, I dug into it and found about 1,000 military come available each year. If you subtract that from the 6,000; there will need to be 5,000 civilians hired per year in the near future. That will be a sustained number for quite a while.
As you said, there are about 20,000 regionals. If the oft quoted lifers is 10%, there are about 18,000 that want to flow. Add to that 135/corporate, maybe a few thousand (?) more. Remember those will need to have newbies to backfill from the same pool as the regionals newbies hiring pool.
As hiring ramps up, the regionals/135/corporate will need to double their hiring, from about 2,500 a year to 5,000 a year. If they are not able to do that, their pool will begin to be sucked dry.
There are pilots who got out after 9/11 and other personal decisions that are coming back in. There is a chance retirement will go to 67. These just defer for a couple or three years the hiring crunch.
If you count on the LCC being sucked dry and not replaced, there are about 7,000 of them (Allegiant, JetBlue, Fronter, Spirit, and Sun Country). While some shrinkage and consolidation may occur, most likely they will bring their pay in line with the majors. At that point, there is much less incentive for pilots to jump ship.
Bottom line, my crystal ball says by sometime in the mid 2020s, maybe sooner, the regionals will be pushed off the edge of the cliff and will be much different and smaller than they are today.
Recent information is being reported AA is down to just under 5,000 and SW is at 3,000. I wonder if the 12,000 with UN is old data. It would be hard to believe UN now has a few more when AA and SW have a lot less.
Current hiring numbers for the 6 majors (AA, UN, DL, SW, UPS, and FedEx) is forecast at 3,500 for this year. As retirements ramp up in the next few years this is projected to increase to 6,000 a year and hold steady for a decade (or more).
I have heard various percentages coming from the military. So, I dug into it and found about 1,000 military come available each year. If you subtract that from the 6,000; there will need to be 5,000 civilians hired per year in the near future. That will be a sustained number for quite a while.
As you said, there are about 20,000 regionals. If the oft quoted lifers is 10%, there are about 18,000 that want to flow. Add to that 135/corporate, maybe a few thousand (?) more. Remember those will need to have newbies to backfill from the same pool as the regionals newbies hiring pool.
As hiring ramps up, the regionals/135/corporate will need to double their hiring, from about 2,500 a year to 5,000 a year. If they are not able to do that, their pool will begin to be sucked dry.
There are pilots who got out after 9/11 and other personal decisions that are coming back in. There is a chance retirement will go to 67. These just defer for a couple or three years the hiring crunch.
If you count on the LCC being sucked dry and not replaced, there are about 7,000 of them (Allegiant, JetBlue, Fronter, Spirit, and Sun Country). While some shrinkage and consolidation may occur, most likely they will bring their pay in line with the majors. At that point, there is much less incentive for pilots to jump ship.
Bottom line, my crystal ball says by sometime in the mid 2020s, maybe sooner, the regionals will be pushed off the edge of the cliff and will be much different and smaller than they are today.
My info was from the WAI conference less than 3 months ago.... perhaps 90 day old info is dated.
I got the impression that people are putting in apps to replenish the pool as fast as they are hiring. Military pilots are getting out in droves, the regionals are hiring and upgrading like crazy, people are getting back into the industry. People that weren't qualified/current/available a year or two ago are putting apps in now. I fall in this category... 3+ years ago I had just hit 2000 TT flying corporate and accumulating hours very slowly, it felt like it would be 10 years before I'd qualify for a major. I didn't have apps in... I figured why bother? Then the boss went bankrupt, sold his plane, I was forced to go work at a regional... Fast forward to about a year and a half ago, I had a friend get hired with fewer total time than I had, no PIC and similar quals to myself. I saw that figured crap I better get my app in and put an app in. Until that point I figured there was no way someone without 5000TT/1000TPIC would get hired at delta.
Then both Delta and United have recently (as in in the past couple weeks) announced they are cutting back hiring from their original projections. I don't know how long they can cut back on hiring projections, but United hired fewer last year than they said they planned to, and it appears they are hiring even fewer this year.
As for SWA, one couldn't even fill out the app without 1000 hours of TPIC until about a month ago. Lots of regional FO's stuck in place that couldn't even put an app on file until the past few weeks. And they have the rumored 14-17 year upgrade, plus no heavy international, and "regional" routes. I believe of a lot of the 'well-qualifed' people just haven't kept an app up with SW.
AA is another anomaly because they were very vocal in the recent past that the best civilian route was to go through a wholly owned. They made it sound like it was almost impossible for a civilian pilot to get hired without flowing up, I have friends that were former AA flightops interns that haven't gotten their 'promised' interview. Talking to them at a job fair last year, all they did was direct me towards the ENY/PDT/PSA booths. Their contract and pay is lagging behind Delta and United. Honestly that app doesn't get updated very often.
At some point we're going to see the bottom drop out. I agree 100%. There are LOTS of retirements coming up. Age 67 can only push the problem off another ~18-24 months. So say by mid 2020's one can somewhat easily get hired at United or Delta without a degree? Maybe, it wouldn't surprise me. The question is, if you meet all of the quals now would you want to wait another 8-10 years to make things happen? or get on finishing that degree ASAP? holding a seniority number 5/8/10 years earlier would certainly pay dividends. If someone has part of their degree complete, to me it's a no-brainer to find the cheapest and quickest way to complete it. If you haven't started yet... then I don't know. Certainly for someone literally getting started, zero time, they may not need a degree at all. With the costs of college tuition, it is definitely something to consider.
Here's to hoping the hiring outlook is better than what I believe it is.
Last edited by Celeste; 05-29-2017 at 10:42 PM.
05-29-2017, 10:56 PM
#167
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Joined APC: Apr 2012
Position: 737 CA
Posts: 508
Anyone getting hired without a degree?
Sevenfreakingteen now. That's page 17 for a very, very stupid neverending question. People that ask this question should not be coddled and shown 'safe spaces;' they should be ridiculed as they're publicly tarred and feathered.
You have to be mentally challenged to even think that you can compete without a 4 year degree. While some may cater to this childish school of thought ('I don't need a degree to be a pylot'), most of us realize that a 4 year degree's a (semi) hard requirement to get a job as a pilot at the majors, LCCs, ULCCs, and regionals. Pointing to the unicorn as the norm is just plain stupid. Thanks for your contributions in making APC a more stupid place to visit.
You have to be mentally challenged to even think that you can compete without a 4 year degree. While some may cater to this childish school of thought ('I don't need a degree to be a pylot'), most of us realize that a 4 year degree's a (semi) hard requirement to get a job as a pilot at the majors, LCCs, ULCCs, and regionals. Pointing to the unicorn as the norm is just plain stupid. Thanks for your contributions in making APC a more stupid place to visit.
All true and agreed, although I'd dial back the condescension a bit. What I find in the countless discussions on various forums discussing this topic is that it devolves into those that don't have degrees desiring jobs at the Big 4 + FedEx/UPS seem to take it personally when people tell them the truth that it's nearly impossible to get hired at said airlines without a 4 year degree. Yes it happens once every third or so blue moon, but most likely it occurs with incredible internal connections (not just a bud you flew with who's a Joe Schmo line pilot at the previous stated carriers) . Meanwhile In reality, it's quite a challenge to be hired at any of these carriers WITH a 4 year degree. So where does that put someone that doesn't even have one? This reality may hurt, but it's the truth and I don't feel that anyone here is looking down on anyone without a degree, we are just letting it be known how important it is if you want to be seriously considered for a job at these carriers.
My heartburn with this topic is that I have many former colleagues that do nothing to improve their chances at getting hired when they know it is exactly this criteria that they fail to meet is what's holding them back. (Help me help you!!!). Money isn't the issue in any of their circumstances, it's lack of motivation. If you TRULY want to work at any of these carriers, do whatever it takes to make yourself as marketable as possible and that means getting a degree. Whining about the requirements to become marketable is just ****ing in the wind and piddling away potential seniority until they possibly, finally start looking at those without degrees after thousands of younger pilots with degrees have been hired in advance.
05-30-2017, 05:39 AM
#169
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Sep 2013
Posts: 684
Sevenfreakingteen now. That's page 17 for a very, very stupid neverending question. People that ask this question should not be coddled and shown 'safe spaces;' they should be ridiculed as they're publicly tarred and feathered.
You have to be mentally challenged to even think that you can compete without a 4 year degree. While some may cater to this childish school of thought ('I don't need a degree to be a pylot'), most of us realize that a 4 year degree's a (semi) hard requirement to get a job as a pilot at the majors, LCCs, ULCCs, and regionals. Pointing to the unicorn as the norm is just plain stupid. Thanks for your contributions in making APC a more stupid place to visit.
You have to be mentally challenged to even think that you can compete without a 4 year degree. While some may cater to this childish school of thought ('I don't need a degree to be a pylot'), most of us realize that a 4 year degree's a (semi) hard requirement to get a job as a pilot at the majors, LCCs, ULCCs, and regionals. Pointing to the unicorn as the norm is just plain stupid. Thanks for your contributions in making APC a more stupid place to visit.
By the way, it's pilot, not Pylot.
Which school did you go to? I'd ask for a refund.
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