ToiletDuck

The airlines might benifit. Time will only tell. The pilots won't. The planes flying aren't 100% full as is. Until they all are we don't need more planes.

China might not be in on this but the US will use it as a barganing chip at some point. The US will probably allow China in as a concession to something we don't like or to boost international relations.

NGINEWHOISWHAT

Yeah, ok. When all of the white collar jobs are out sourced to Africa, India, China, Malaysia, and Singapore what good will a college degree do? As we become more "globalized" and the trade deficits continue to grow, a degree will be about as worthless as Woolworth stock. I don't like to cast stones, but some people are content to out source America. You, sir, appear to be one of those people. I'm not trying to flame, I understand what you are saying about competition, but many jobs will be lost over the long term if this passes and wages will be cut.


Really now, what about Asian carriers hauling cargo in the US borders now? I believe that classifies as a when, not if. All Nippon stealing freight from the left, Europe trying to steal our routes from the right. Just what I want to leave behind for my grandkids. An outsourced aviation industry all in the name of driving fares down. Thanks W.

Tom

A320fumes

Glad you didn't take offense JMT, none was intended.

All:

Don't be overly offended by JMT's post, they give us an insight to how pure capitalism works, and I think this is much needed throughout our ranks. An accountant, CEO,CFO....etc sees highly skilled labor as a needless liability. They see your love of the profession in terms and will exploit it to acquire what it is that they love...profit! nothing else outside of their front door.

[quote=JMT21;127761] This is allowing the European carriers to do the samething American carriers have been able to do for years. This is leveling the playing field.[quote]

Makes perfect sense to management, sounds ridiculous, almost blasphemous to most of us.

The first time I heard this was from Sen John McCain when he promoted cabotage. Like it or not, this is what we're dealing with. Remember that when your next contract opens for negotiation or when the company ask you to sell your young, ie B-Scales and reserve work rules. Also remember that management wants to replace you, they think that you are part of the problem not the solution. Above ALL else, remember that you ARE skilled labor, and from a bean counter's perspective, nothing more.

JMT, keep posting, a lot of us need to hear it from an accountants point of view.

NGINEWHOISWHAT

A320, something I was not aware of until lately is ALPA has had a rep. in Brussels from round one of the talks. I'm waiting to hear more definitive "information" from them.


As in previous rounds, ALPA has had an observer present during all negotiations since the start of the latest talks in Brussels. ALPA will continue to play a pivotal role in representing its members and employing all union resources to ensure that the jobs, safety, and security of the U.S. airline industry are not compromised. ALPA is studying the lengthy agreement in detail and will provide more information in the near future.

Tom

A320fumes

Good on ALPA. Hope he's their with prudent intent.

PaintCan

Freedoms of the Air:
(For a visual diagram visist the link below):

Link: http://ostpxweb.dot.gov/aviation/Data/freedoms.htm



Currently there are generally considered to be nine freedoms of the air . Although these operations are called "freedoms", they are not necessarily available to an airline. Most nations of the world exchange first and second freedoms through the International Air Services Transit Agreement. The other freedoms, to the extent that they are available, are usually exchanged between countries in bilateral or multilateral air services agreements. The eighth and nineth freedoms (cabotage) have been exchanged only in limited instances. (U.S. law currently prohibits cabotage operations.) In addition, airlines are often required to have an operating license to exercise the rights that are available.

First Freedom
The right to fly across the territory of a foreign country. without landing (e.g. United Airlines flies from the United States (A) over Ireland (B) en route to Germany.)



Second Freedom
The right to land in a foreign country for technical or non-traffic purposes, such as for re-fueling or maintenance. (e.g. American Airlines flies from the United States (A) and lands to refuel in Ireland (B) enroute to Germany.)



Third Freedom
The right to deplane traffic in a foreign country that was enplaned in the home country of the carrier. (e.g. United Airlines carries passengers from the United States (A) to France (B).)



Fourth Freedom
The right to enplane traffic in the foreign country that is bound for the home country of the carrier. (e.g. American Airlines carries passengers from the United Kingdom (B) to the United States (A).)



Fifth Freedom
The right to enplane traffic at one foreign point and deplane it in another foreign point as part of continuous operation also serving the airline's homeland (e.g. Northwest Airlines has "fifth freedom" rights to carry traffic between Tokyo (B) and Hong Kong (C), on services which stop at Tokyo (B) en route between Los Angeles (A) and Hong Kong (C).



Sixth Freedom
This term is applied to Fifth Freedom traffic carried from a point of origin in one foreign country to a point of destination in another foreign country via the home country of the airline. (e.g. KLM, carries sixth-freedom traffic between New York (A) and Cairo (C), carrying passengers traveling from New York (A) to Amsterdam (B) and on to Cairo (C).)



Seventh Freedom
This term is applied to an airline's operating turn around service and carrying traffic between points in two foreign countries without serving its home country (e.g., Lufthansa operates between New York (A) and Mexico City (C) without serving Germany (B)).



Eighth Freedom
This term is used to refer to "consecutive or fill-up" cabotage in which an airline picks up traffic at one point in a foreign country and deplanes it at another point in that same foreign country as part of a service from the home country of the airline (e.g., Singapore Airlines enplanes traffic at Wellington (A) and deplanes it in Aukland (B) as part of its service between New Zealand and Singapore (C))..



Ninth Freedom
This term is used to refer to "pure" cabotage in which an airline of one country operates flights and carries traffic solely between two points in a foreign country (e.g., Air France operates flights between Berlin (A) and Frankfurt (B))

cma2407

1. Preposterous comment. Any money that U.S. Carriers have made--i.e. lessened their losses--has come FROM workers. There has been no "trickle down" effect. Just concessions to lessen the red ink.

2. Competition. In normal circumstances, you'd be right. However, it's tough to "compete" straight up when foreign governments are subsidizing private businesses...e.g. Airbus vs. Boeing. Toss in foreign subsidies, an uneven playing field, and the potential of pilots flying the Atlantic at regional wages and there's nothing positive here.

No matter how you sugar-coat it, this just accelerates the free fall of the U.S. Aviation industry. It's one step closer to having chickens run up and down the aisle. And if you think that's ridiculous, put your WSJ down and take a trip overseas to somewhere besides London. Go spend the weekend in Mumbai on Air India, or a scenic African location.

NGINEWHOISWHAT

Monday, March 5, 2007


Word that the United States and the European Union have reached a tentative "open skies" agreement has some industry observers expecting that to have a negative impact on British Airways. If approved, the agreement would liberalize rules restricting flights between Europe and the USA. In British Airway's case, shares in the airline's stock dropped today as analysts said "it had most to lose from a deal, because it would open up competition on flights from London's Heathrow Airport to the United States. The lucrative trans-Atlantic route contributes a major slice of BA's profits and increased competition could drive down fares, hitting the airline's revenues," writes CNN/Reuters

Currently, flights between the USA and Heathrow –- considered to be London's most desirable airport –- are limited to just four airlines (BA, Virgin Atlantic, American and United). "From BA's perspective, the negative is the breaking-up of the cartel (over flights from) Heathrow to the U.S.," says Exane analyst Nick van den Brul. "Any time you break up a cartel the implication is that prices are going to fall, and everybody knows that BA's yields on the north Atlantic are what drives its profits."

NGINEWHOISWHAT

I know this discussion is about the Atlantic and not the pacific, but I had to post this one.

http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?p...ako&refer=home

Lowering inequality in China will require planners to figure out a way to reverse a steep decline in the share of wages in the economy. This is a fundamental challenge, which is going to be tough to surmount.

Much is being made of the drop in the share of wages in the developed world and how that could be linked to multinational companies' moving work to cheaper locations in China and India. Economists are concerned that this marginalization of rich nations' workforces may cause a political backlash against globalization.

The threat to social stability from too much profit and too little remuneration is even more pronounced in China.

The share of wages in the Chinese economy fell to 41 percent of GDP in 2005 from 53 percent in 1998, according to the World Bank. In the U.S., wages account for 57 percent of GDP.

JMT21

The white collar jobs are going no where fast. I can assure you there are far more $7.66/hour jobs being outsourced than $100k/year jobs. It would be very difficult to simply ship many of the white collar jobs overseas. I can also assure you that a college degree will always be useful.

As far as the trade deficit is concerned, I would encourage you to read the following: http://www.ou.edu/class/econ3003/book/area1c35.html (I realize it is a little outdated, but should still give you different perspective on things). Also, consider picking up a Milton Friedman book. He was one of the greatest economists of our time; his books are a fantastic and very educational read.

Whats ANA pay? Whats Cathay pay? Whats JAL pay? These carriers are not driving wages down. The economics are similar, why can't the U.S. carriers compete? If we prohibit all foreign airlines from hauling cargo into the U.S., should the rest of the world prohibit UPS and FedEx from hauling cargo into their country?

Making a profit is their job, it's what the shareholders pay them to do.