rickair7777

Actually...$130K is IMO a good round number assuming...

Spouse
2x Kids (college bound)
House (slightly bigger than average)
Possible vacation home (can also serve as investment vehicle)
2x Car (somewhat nicer than a Ford Fiesta)
Interest in life experiences (vacations, foreign exchange, etc)
Need for retirement income above and beyond social security
Hobbies (some can be very cheap, ie computer gaming, but let's assume maybe a boat, motorcycle, etc)
"Average" cost of living area

You can get by with less current income if you have a good defined-benefit retirement plan w/ medical.

USMCFLYR

I had a long and detailed response to your last post but I decided it wasn't even worth trying to say the same hings over and over to you again like I, and others, have to Sky. If Sky's opinion is now your contention too - so be it. Run with it and have a fine time.
I've never said anything other than what you say is the few following quotes from you response to JB:
I've said all those things a hundred times Cub and you know it.

It isn't our calling him out on his hyperbole that exaberates his posting; he come on every so often so make the same tired statmeents aover and over again. Some have decide to rebut time and time gain. Just each other's opinions right? Maybe it is he would 'points fingers and makes mad' the people who are tired of reading the same exaggerations over and over. Ever consider that?

As far as my compassion for fellow professional pilots Cub - - - I've been plenty compassionate about your struggles in the industry the entire time haven't I? You don't have a need to worry about me.
As for this statement:
If you'd like to respond to this then I'd like you to provide an example where I have ever said that there shouldn't be some 'fairness and equality'.

JohnBurke

I provided the link. It's the value that the social security administration provided as the US median wage, or average wage across the board; it represents the average income in the US, the average being a third of what skyhigh puts forth as the bare minimum. Given that most people get by on a third of skyhigh's "bare minimum," skyhigh's numbers may be more pie in the sky than reality.

Given the wild nature of the assertions, "hyperbole" as you suggest, there's no need to delve further into his shot credibility.

JamesNoBrakes

Wait, don't "average" and "median" mean very different things?

JohnBurke

Do they?

The link provided previously, however, cites the national average wage at 44,000 plus change; a third of skyhigh's lofty "bare minimum figure."

44,000 as an average, then would perhaps not be the "median," or middle of the income values, but would represent a much larger number of people, with more under that value than over.

There are a LOT of people living below the poverty line in this country; to express the arrogant view that 130,000 is a bare minimum to get by today shows one who is not in touch with reality.

Cubdriver

Sure, but you rebut SH and all that does is add fuel to the fire. For quite a few years I did not like what he said and thought of him as an outlier in the airline experience. When I got about 5 years into my own flying career I saw that a lot of what he was saying was accurate- in particular the part about low pay, weak unions, job instability and shabby quality of life. I started recognizing the depth of the labor exploitation going on in the low end of domestic commercial aviation and how intractable the problem is. The degraded regional pilot situation in this country is damn nearly a national crisis, witness the Colgan legislation of late. If regionals are the main pathway to the majors, then anyone entering this industry needs to know about the mess they face. I see a need for a simple story line sticking to the real facts and leaving out the drama. When you rebut SH we run the risk of missing the useful part of his message.

Yes you have been positive to me. I have had a pretty disappointing career so far. I made some poor employer choices (ie. one who crashed last week, another who is probably bankrupt now), bad choices I have to take credit for. I was not well advised on which employers to avoid and it really cost me. The main thing I am sorry to see here is that SH means well and has a good message for everyone, but screws it up by adding a lot drama that he shouldn't. In particular, this is an airline pilot website so it is a basic expectation for anyone posting here to be somewhat positive about the job. That’s the main mistake he makes, and it’s what irritates most people the most about him. A negative overall perspective on this career is not a very good message to put out here even if you believe it. I just want SH to get fair enough treatment when he tells why he quit.

You never said something so direct but you take SH too seriously for his rhetoric, and fail to see the useful part of his input. SH gives a real life story of his own failed career. I think his story parallels far too many others like him, and at the risk of being accusative, I think if you had tackled some of the crappy flying jobs he had you might feel a bit sympathetic to his final outcome. There are many success stories in this business and we need to hear those too, but SH is not a statistical outlier best I can tell- many pilots end up with a similar end result. Low pay, frequent reverses and poor working conditions can really kill a career in this business and a lot of people have them. In a sense it is a valuable thing to have one of the career casualties around telling the depressing story.

JohnBurke

How so?

Where's the crisis?

Regionals are not the pathway to the majors. Regionals are one route among many.

Regionals are an entry level job, and is is a sad fact that many without experience move to a major airline with their regional background as their only fundamental. Scary thought. Those doing so often think they know the industry, when in fact they've seen nearly nothing of it. People graduate from regionals to the majors when they have an opportunity not because it's the path to the majors, but because they hired into the regional as a know-nothing neophyte and have been nowhere else. Many gain valuable experience elsewhere, that they can bring to the table.

USMCFLYR

You don't have to listen to SkyHIgh on this site to get that message. MANY people on this site - probably even a majority of people on this site - would give you the same story with a lot less story telling and exaggerations. I don't even rebut most of what Sky says about the **airline** industry, but he also doesn't limit his remarks to the airline industry but attacks the aviation industry - and any one in it - on whole; and like you said in a previous post, I'll consider it MY civic duty then to rebut his retorts for the greater good and letting those young minds that he so desperately wants to save from themselves that there is more to the story.

then we see a need for the same and Sky's storyline isn't it. You solution to this is to NOT rebut the hyperbole Cub? That is the best you can come up with after your own experience. Let me ask you this. How many posts have you made lately railing against the pilot shortage because of YOUR OWN opinion and recent experience? Would you be willing to not rebut any more posts and threads about that or do you feel some need to educate people about this supposed pilot shortage that you certainly do not believe in.

Something I've said another hundred times. Even tried to talk him into being less 'Sky' so that MORE people would listen; but he doesn't want to and enjoys being the outrigger. It gets him the attention he craves. We all know it and maybe some even find a little joy in rebutting him or wondering what other ridiculous story he'll come up with next to sway his "converts".

Sky gets no special treatment one way or another here. Try and find a Sky post that has been deleted - especially in relation to other hard timers on the site. He knows the line and walks it carefully - though if we start addressing the generalized insults as much as the directed insults, he'll find himself on the wrong side of that line soon enough. That applies across the board.

Then you are either late to this game we've played for the 8 years I've been on this site or you are blind. I've back the meat of his points many a time, but disagree with his over the top exaggerations to try and make his point even more dramatic than needs be to get the story across. As you say above, we both see the "...need for a simple story line sticking to the real facts and leaving out the drama." Why don't you write Sky a post in this thread Cub and ask him for what you'd like to see. Maybe you should expend some of your energy in his direction instead of trying to tell me that I am not compassionate about my fellow pilots and the sort. Are you willing to attack the problem you see from both ends?

And who says I'm NOT sympathetic to his plight? You certainly don't know whether I am or not do you? He can tell his sad tale all he wants; that still doesn't excuse his calling successful pilots centric, automaton uncaring parents who are selfish and don't care about their families. Yes Cub - we all have stories of hardship I'm sure. SkyHigh is not alone in the path that he has travel. He wasn't the first and he won't be the last. Some will make it, some won't. Not everyone gets the golden ring.

Life Cub....freaking life.

Rama

PPL to legacy job was 19 years for me. I worked as an A&P and flew as much as possible in that time frame. Life,bills, furloughs, divorce, got in the way. Often flew 7 days a week doing 135 cargo and skydivers just scraping by. Made a lot of sacrifices. It was a long and sometimes difficult road, but I'm glad I followed it. Not saying that it works out for everyone, but the only way to find out is to give it a shot.

Cubdriver

The way I was brought up, you do not condemn the loser just for being the loser. Most people here seem to condemn SH for quitting the industry as though he made an insincere attempt. From his story it sounds as if he put plenty of good faith and time into the effort, and still could not pay his family bills. As such, he had a valid reason to quit and also has a useful message for those who are still here trying for the stars- you may not get to the brass ring despite your best efforts and time to the contrary. I for one enjoy hearing SH's past struggles because they were real life lessons, and I encourage him to participate here in some way even now as a GA pilot.