SkyHigh

Pilots are constantly bombarded with articles and information about how "great" an aviation career is. I am so bold as to express my views here, in a forum of ideas, that run contrary to the the contrived marketing message driven media.

In your case however you are doing just fine. You were smart enough to have avoided the mass delusion and made expert choices for yourself. Your actions prove to me that, subconsciously at least, you fully understand my position.

I wish you would share more about how to make better life choices than to feel obligated to encourage futility. I do not feel obligated to serve as a cheerleader for what I believe to be a poor choice.

Skyhigh

USMCFLYR

It is called marketing - and it applied to 'snake oil' salesmen in the 1800s as well as aviation in this century.

This forum certainly doesn't cater to the idea that the aviatoin indsutry, and particulary the airline portion of that industry, is rainbows and unicorns.
Luckily - MOST have a balanced view of the pros and cons of this industry.
The Skyhigh version of the 'doom and gloom' is no more accurate than the 'everything is perfect' scenario that you rally against. Both of those views live on the outriggers of the industry and both should be heeded with a HUGE grain a salt and some perspective.

Cubdriver

For the most part, minus all the drama perhaps, SkyHigh makes valid points here about the nature of the flying industry in this country. Saying he is "entitled" just to expect a middle class return on a middle class education is nonsense. Of course one should expect that, otherwise why get the $100k education? The pro pilot career in America in general is one characterized by stiff competition for not enough jobs. That's not my opinion, that's the opinion of the US Bureau of Labor Statistics who studies such things. SkyHigh's points generally ring true to me using data sources like the BLS, and in my own 6 year experience as a low end commercial pilot. If I had kids, I certainly would not steer them towards career in flying. The regionals are filled with capable pilots who cannot get past that level of industry, and the majors have stacks of qualified pilots for not enough jobs to go around. Flight training is cheap in the US in comparison to other parts of the civilized world, and we are something of a nation of dreamers also which makes for a career characterized by limited opportunity at the top. SkyHigh is just pointing that out and I think he has a point. A few success stories taken here and there as proof the job is good serves as poor evidence gathering. You need to look at the big picture using the overall data from the entire industry.

USMCFLYR

No worse than a few stories of ruin here and there can provide proof of the ineviable failing of an aviation career.

You have had some bad luck couple with bad decisions in your own career Cub. Maybe you, like SkyHigh, are both looking for something to blame due your own troubles in the the airline industry.

You should expect anything. To think otherwise is entitlement. No one OWES you anything no matter how much you spend on school or what training you receive.
You decide to give it a try, you decide that the reward is worth the cost, and you give it a shot. If it works out then you made the right decision. If it doesn't and you try to hang on to a bad idea - bad decision on your part and you deal with the consequences. If you try and it becomes apparent in your own mind that you have given it a good try - then move on with your life and go try something else - to which you will hopefully apply the same reasoning to as your did to aviation career.

What you should do when talking to anybody - young person or a career changer - is make sure that understand what they are getting into.
I'm just not sure why a few on this board have to live in the most dire extremes of the industry other than to assume that they are projecting their own failures on to the rest of the industry. Maybe it makes you feel better to hope that everyone elses' career will have the same troubles as your own did. Pretty sad in my opinion.

Maybe some others on this board ought to take the same advice and "look at the big picture using the overall data from the entire industry."

atpwannabe

O contraire mon frère!

First, Sales is not my new calling. Always have been in it at one point or another. I just concentrated more on aviation than I did sales.

Not following one's passion, but taking it with you as one forges ahead in whatever profession they've chosen is good advice whether it be for med school, law school and yes...even flight school. I think that the article that Sky referred to speaks to 'blindly' following your passion which some people do.

To be clear, I'm not laying the blame anywhere. After a psychological eval; a psychiatric eval; three HIMS evaluations and two of the HIMS evaluations recommended certification, Washington (The FAA) dragged their feet on this one. It was always something else to be done, i.e. securing a HIMS AME (which I did); a comprehensive eye examination and so on, and so on and so on. Even my Dad related to me that he thought the FAA was just taking me for a ride. Welp, at some point, I had to decide if in fact they were...and I did. The time, resources, effort and energy that I put into this process didn't end with the results that I had envisioned. Anyone who invests that amount of resources would be upset at the outcome. On the other hand, just as Cubdriver noted that the process or the journey is what really counts and as far as I'm concerned outweighs the results....any day!

To that end, I still have an interest in aviation. I still fly on MS FSX; participate in alumni events with ERAU; participate in OBAP & BPA functions; have model airplanes hanging from the ceiling at my place and on my desk at work; and still proudly exhibit around my license plate the tag "I'd Rather Be Flying".

atp

JohnBurke

He's making over two hundred grand, and frankly, unlike you, living like a king.

That was your goal, wasn't it? You hope to drag him down to your level? You think that after another two decades, he will come to the realization that having a life, an excellent salary, ample time off, and peace of mind is somehow all an illusion? This is your goal?

It is not boldness that drives you, and while you're entitled to your view, you haven't really a leg to stand upon when dictating the value of an aviation career. Yours was an abandoned failure; you're hardly the one to speak on the efficacy of a career in aviation. You've frequently detailed your delusion of what the industry is and what you thought it ought to be, and have given contradictory statements about being raised in an aviation family yet entirely ignorant of the nature of the job, even after training and school. You express a strong sense of entitlement, that you're owed something for the time and money spent in school, and you constantly express your dismay that your entry level failed career at a regional didn't leave you living like a king. That any of this surprises you is the true conundrum.

It's not that your ideas run contrary to "contrived marketing message driven media;" it's that your ideas run contrary to the truth, and you're hardly the person to talk about an aviation career. You're more like a med student who washed out of medical school, who attempts to diagnose and treat a patient. Your'e the wrong one for the job.

You studied aviation yet never came to understand it; a wasted four years of college. You've often told us about living a delusion throughout college, believing a lie; you attended four years and learned nothing about your major, if you were so surprised upon arrival in the work force. As for your English skills; these are inherently necessary to any degree. Four years, and still can't make a sentence? You do better with numbers? Your numbers don't add up? The numbers you banty about don't compare to the wage index, the average median value. How is it that as a finance expert you can quote such high salary demands when the majority of the country is far, far below your estimates? You say that life isn't possible without six figure incomes, yet the country gets by on far, far less. For this, you condemn the industry.

Yes, entitlement. If you truly believe that simply because you bought a degree, the world owes you some level of income or that you're entitled to any level of employment, then you have a sense of entitlement that clouds your judgement and throws your entire argument into question (not that there was ever any question regarding the reality of your statement. It's false.

Perhaps that's a better plan to you. For me, a better plan is to do something that I enjoy, that I'm good at doing, that provides a richly rewarding sense of accomplishment, and that I feel fortunate to do. That would be to fly airplanes and to turn wrenches on them.

Most airline careers don't pay enough? Perhaps at the regional level, but the regionals are entry level positions. Most airline careers pay quite well, particularly in light of the fact that a career is inclusive not only of the entry level duties, but the more lucrative later years. Furthermore, there is far more to an aviation career, should one choose, than simply an airline.

If you want security, commit a crime and get a jail sentence. There, you'll find regular meals, sleeping quarters, and guarantees. In the real world, you make your own luck. Security? Save your own money. Do you think that you're entitled to anything? You're born into the world naked and penniless and you'll go out essentially the same, with no more ownership than what can be buried alongside you. In the interim, you're entitled only to what you can earn, save, negotiate, and achieve. That you were unable to achieve in aviation is no condemnation on the industry; it's only an indictment on your own effort.

And yet the median wage is four thousand less than the minimum you prescribe. How do you explain this?

HeavyDriver

Risk and reward laws apply to all things..Risk will burn you and reward you. You have to decide how much of a burn you are willing to accept...I don't fly for a Major, but I have had a fantastic flying career...professionally, personally, and financially...NO REGRETS. From me or my family...I've have 15 years left and can retire now, but I love flying jets around the world, so here I stay...Like all things...Work hard, work smart...YOU are only to blame for your failures, poor planning or bad luck when you fall short of goals and don't get back up...I learned that playing full contact football as a kid...no matter how big or hard the hit...you decide...get up and keep playing or go to the sideline and watch the others have fun playing...Now...if you decide to go to the sideline then you have no credibility to tell those playing how the game is played...

Grumble

Skyhigh doesn't understand this concept. It's why he quit, and his regret is why he keeps coming back. He writes here not for anyone else, but because he is trying to convince himself that he's happy.

USMCFLYR

BLINDLY doing anything isn't a good course in life. Yes - that is good advice that applies to LIFE - not just aviation. Funny thing is I learned that from my mother early on - I don't need Mike Rowe telling me that or reading an article about it - matter of fact - it seems pretty darn common sense. But maybe some people do need Mike Rowe's, or Sky's advice on that!


Did you exhaust the NTSB's appeal process?
Airman Appeal Process

atpwannabe

Funny you should mention that. Learned about the appeal process from (believe it or not) an old neighbor who actually works for the NTSB. We grew up just down the street from each and attended the same church. She told me about the appeals process and about the SI process. She suggested that I get an aviation attorney. One of the attorneys told me that his retainer was 25K! Not me...I'm done! Not throwing anymore money down this black hole.

atp