I'm done
02-20-2013, 02:10 PM
#1
New Hire
Thread Starter
Joined APC: Sep 2012
Posts: 9
I'm done
After 35 yrs in aviation as a mechanic, flight engineer and first officer I'm done. Totally disgusted with the whole industry. Starting over in the local community.
I don't have to deadhead half way around the world ever again
I don't have to deadhead half way around the world ever again
02-21-2013, 04:51 AM
#5
New Hire
Thread Starter
Joined APC: Sep 2012
Posts: 9
I'm done
I was a career freight dog. I had a little over 11,000 hrs of FE time in 707's, 727's, and DC-8's. In 2010, I moved to the right seat of the DC-8, got displaced to the 767 and whamo - furloughed. I had a little over 100 hrs in the DC-8 and 300 in the 767. So I'm just short of the requisite experience for the ATP and now no one will even talk to me. Thank you Congress for getting involved in the rule making process. So I'm thinking I'm done. I will always fly for my enjoyment, but I'm not going to do it for a living.
02-21-2013, 05:29 AM
#6
Disinterested Third Party
Joined APC: Jun 2012
Posts: 6,298
Recently a poster at a company board made the comment to the outgoing FE's "sorry you made a bad career choice." I disagree with his comments, as I'm a FE myself, as well as having played FO and Captain on three-man cockpit aircraft. However, he also had a point, however poorly phrased it might have been. A number of FE's who were losing their jobs as the last of the FE seats were disappearing became frustrated at their inability to upgrade, to to flight times.
Many of those FE's felt that because they had years (many years) of experience in type, they ought to be naturally upgraded to a pilot seat. The problem for them was that their long years of hard work and dedication weren't in a pilot seat. The FE seat is not at all the same as a pilot seat, as you're aware. Most of those in the pilot seat had 20+ years of experience as pilots, to get in the seat in the first place...myself included. These guys wanted to get a little bit of flight experience and then be heavy drivers. Not so.
If you've got 400 hours or so of experience and 11,000 hours of FE time, you're a 400 hour pilot, and shouldn't express frustration at an inability to progress in that position. I've known many pilots who shortcut the system, jumping into an advanced cockpit with a few hundred hours, only to find they lacked the pilot in command experience to upgrade. They'd tried to run before they could walk, and they had to go back to the instruction arena, or a piston airplane somewhere to fly night freight, before they could return to continue in the track they'd once been in.
Don't blame congress. 1,500 hours of flight time and a requirement for an ATP is very minimal. Not a big thing to ask of someone flying large, heavy equipment. It really doesn't matter that you have 11,000 hours of FE time. It really doesn't matter that you have a mechanic certificate. Many of us do. What matters is your pilot time, and it's very low. This isn't a big slap in the face for you. It's not the end of the world. You're attempting to start in a new position. You wouldn't expect to get 400 hours in helicopters and then race to the top in the helicopter business...it's a new track. Same for piloting. You've had a sampling, but you really need to gain more piloting experience, and you can certainly do that. All of us had to do it, and you can too.
Did you make a bad career choice as a Flight Engineer? I don't think so. It's an honorable profession. Never the less, if one desired to be a pilot one could put it in context and say one has spun one's wheels for 35 years, not being a pilot...and in that context, yes, it's a poor career choice. It's a great choice of its own accord, but not when it comes to becoming a pilot because those 11,000 hours aren't pilot time.
You've every chance to become a pilot with a career, if you wish. No reason why not. Expectations of transitioning to the right seat of heavy equipment may or may not be realistic for you...you may need to go back and fill in the many gaps that you're missing in your experience. In my opinion, anyone making the transition ought to do so, because there's a great deal of basic experience missing that is fundamental to judgement in the pilot seat.
If you're truly fed up with the industry and ready to move on, so be it. That's your choice entirely. Don't do so under the misguided and false opinion, however, that the industry has squeezed you out. That's just not the case. The same opportunity exists for you as for the rest of us, but you can't shortcut the line. Perhaps in times past, but those times are over. You're going to have to go back and get the same experience that the rest of us did to qualify us to sit in those seats and make the decisions necessary to safely operate.
You could get the experience in a year, or a year and a half, if you try...Flight Express or other operations where you bust your butt, fly it off, and come out ready to be hired with currency and experience in hand...will qualify you to go get the ATP and get hired. With that in hand plus your 11,000 hard earned hours, you'll be a lot more marketable.
Think of it like this: more than a few guys have gone back to college to pick up a degree, years after they're past their school days...and made it work. Same thing for you, but with flight experience and certification. Obtaining the ATP is realistic, but it's not an overnight thing, and it does require a substantial temporary cut in pay, a worse schedule, and some effort. It sounds like you've already decided it's not worth the effort, and that's something only you can decide. You need to understand, however, that it's very possible; the outcome is entirely in your hands.
Many of those FE's felt that because they had years (many years) of experience in type, they ought to be naturally upgraded to a pilot seat. The problem for them was that their long years of hard work and dedication weren't in a pilot seat. The FE seat is not at all the same as a pilot seat, as you're aware. Most of those in the pilot seat had 20+ years of experience as pilots, to get in the seat in the first place...myself included. These guys wanted to get a little bit of flight experience and then be heavy drivers. Not so.
If you've got 400 hours or so of experience and 11,000 hours of FE time, you're a 400 hour pilot, and shouldn't express frustration at an inability to progress in that position. I've known many pilots who shortcut the system, jumping into an advanced cockpit with a few hundred hours, only to find they lacked the pilot in command experience to upgrade. They'd tried to run before they could walk, and they had to go back to the instruction arena, or a piston airplane somewhere to fly night freight, before they could return to continue in the track they'd once been in.
Don't blame congress. 1,500 hours of flight time and a requirement for an ATP is very minimal. Not a big thing to ask of someone flying large, heavy equipment. It really doesn't matter that you have 11,000 hours of FE time. It really doesn't matter that you have a mechanic certificate. Many of us do. What matters is your pilot time, and it's very low. This isn't a big slap in the face for you. It's not the end of the world. You're attempting to start in a new position. You wouldn't expect to get 400 hours in helicopters and then race to the top in the helicopter business...it's a new track. Same for piloting. You've had a sampling, but you really need to gain more piloting experience, and you can certainly do that. All of us had to do it, and you can too.
Did you make a bad career choice as a Flight Engineer? I don't think so. It's an honorable profession. Never the less, if one desired to be a pilot one could put it in context and say one has spun one's wheels for 35 years, not being a pilot...and in that context, yes, it's a poor career choice. It's a great choice of its own accord, but not when it comes to becoming a pilot because those 11,000 hours aren't pilot time.
You've every chance to become a pilot with a career, if you wish. No reason why not. Expectations of transitioning to the right seat of heavy equipment may or may not be realistic for you...you may need to go back and fill in the many gaps that you're missing in your experience. In my opinion, anyone making the transition ought to do so, because there's a great deal of basic experience missing that is fundamental to judgement in the pilot seat.
If you're truly fed up with the industry and ready to move on, so be it. That's your choice entirely. Don't do so under the misguided and false opinion, however, that the industry has squeezed you out. That's just not the case. The same opportunity exists for you as for the rest of us, but you can't shortcut the line. Perhaps in times past, but those times are over. You're going to have to go back and get the same experience that the rest of us did to qualify us to sit in those seats and make the decisions necessary to safely operate.
You could get the experience in a year, or a year and a half, if you try...Flight Express or other operations where you bust your butt, fly it off, and come out ready to be hired with currency and experience in hand...will qualify you to go get the ATP and get hired. With that in hand plus your 11,000 hard earned hours, you'll be a lot more marketable.
Think of it like this: more than a few guys have gone back to college to pick up a degree, years after they're past their school days...and made it work. Same thing for you, but with flight experience and certification. Obtaining the ATP is realistic, but it's not an overnight thing, and it does require a substantial temporary cut in pay, a worse schedule, and some effort. It sounds like you've already decided it's not worth the effort, and that's something only you can decide. You need to understand, however, that it's very possible; the outcome is entirely in your hands.
02-21-2013, 05:53 PM
#7
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Apr 2010
Position: Pipers & RV-12
Posts: 236
I'm definitely not fatalistic, and am all for "if it is to be it is up to me", but I don't think the outcome is entirely in your hands in any career, and especially not aviation (unless you meant just getting the ATP rating, then I'd likely agree).
02-21-2013, 07:44 PM
#8
Disinterested Third Party
Joined APC: Jun 2012
Posts: 6,298
That's not what I meant because that's not what I said.
I meant what I said.
Your career is in your hands, and no other. Only you can decide if you're done. The industry doesn't decide it for you. The chief cause of the end of a career in aviation is the unwillingness of the individual to press on. Those who elect to press on often find that what they thought was the end was merely a brief respite between employment.
Think of it as a period of growth; a time for reflection and learning.
Your career is in your hands and none other.
I meant what I said.
Your career is in your hands, and no other. Only you can decide if you're done. The industry doesn't decide it for you. The chief cause of the end of a career in aviation is the unwillingness of the individual to press on. Those who elect to press on often find that what they thought was the end was merely a brief respite between employment.
Think of it as a period of growth; a time for reflection and learning.
Your career is in your hands and none other.
02-21-2013, 08:20 PM
#9
Nice lookin' tree, there!
Joined APC: Sep 2006
Position: Tool-Box, old man
Posts: 2,205
fbh
02-21-2013, 09:11 PM
#10
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Apr 2010
Position: Pipers & RV-12
Posts: 236
Sorry Horton. I thought you said the outcome was in your hands, not that your career was in your hands.
I'll agree the input is in your hands, and you can keep inputting until the day you die (and so should a man), but unless you are in ultimate control, someone else's hands may change the "outcome".
If you mean one can control all outcomes, then I must disagree with you.
Mr. Burke, you are quite a salesman for gumption, and I think that is honorable. To continue despite fierce resistance and failure toward a worthy goal is probably the best path to happiness. It's good advice, and you provide it often in this "leaving the career" forum.
If people leave aviation, let them. There are other worthy career goals in life, and many of those who leave realize that they were chasing the wrong goal, or at least the wrong goal for them. There are a number of difficult paths to develop one's self:
"‘How to face difficulties?' he declared again. 'In the realm of the unknown, difficulties must be viewed as a hidden treasure: Usually, the more difficult, the better! It's not as valuable if your difficulties stem from your own inner struggle. But when difficulties arise out of increasing objective resistance, that's marvelous!
Failures must be considered the cue for further application of effort and concentration of will power. And if substantial efforts have already been made, the failures are all the more joyous. It means that our crowbar has struck the iron box containing the treasure.
Overcoming the increased difficulties is all the more valuable because in failure the growth of the person performing the task takes place in proportion to the difficulty encountered.'"
-- Sologdin, speaking to Nerzhin in Alexander Solzhenitsyn's "The First Circle"
I'll agree the input is in your hands, and you can keep inputting until the day you die (and so should a man), but unless you are in ultimate control, someone else's hands may change the "outcome".
If you mean one can control all outcomes, then I must disagree with you.
Mr. Burke, you are quite a salesman for gumption, and I think that is honorable. To continue despite fierce resistance and failure toward a worthy goal is probably the best path to happiness. It's good advice, and you provide it often in this "leaving the career" forum.
If people leave aviation, let them. There are other worthy career goals in life, and many of those who leave realize that they were chasing the wrong goal, or at least the wrong goal for them. There are a number of difficult paths to develop one's self:
"‘How to face difficulties?' he declared again. 'In the realm of the unknown, difficulties must be viewed as a hidden treasure: Usually, the more difficult, the better! It's not as valuable if your difficulties stem from your own inner struggle. But when difficulties arise out of increasing objective resistance, that's marvelous!
Failures must be considered the cue for further application of effort and concentration of will power. And if substantial efforts have already been made, the failures are all the more joyous. It means that our crowbar has struck the iron box containing the treasure.
Overcoming the increased difficulties is all the more valuable because in failure the growth of the person performing the task takes place in proportion to the difficulty encountered.'"
-- Sologdin, speaking to Nerzhin in Alexander Solzhenitsyn's "The First Circle"
