My $0.02
11-30-2010, 05:46 PM
#31
Self Employed.
Joined APC: May 2005
Position: Corporate Pilot
Posts: 7,119
I don't know
The anticipation is killing me! JK. I think Sky needs a little Ying to his Yang in this fight. I will try convince him that there are some great stories/careers in Aviation and hopefully, one day, we can accept him with open arms into the good side of the force. No, i'm not a total geek.
Aviation has changed. When I was a kid pilots lived well. They were respected members of society. In my home town there were several prominent airline pilots who were well known land and business owners. They sent their families to France for the summer and Hawaii in the winter. They owned the biggest houses in town and bought a new car every two years.
Today even the legacy pilots are struggling to maintain middle class. It takes a huge amount of sacrifice and risk to be an airline pilot. The best the average airline pilot can hope for today is to make more than a mailman at some point.
I am sorry I do not see an upside for those who are starting out today. I will not accept my compensation in sunsets and ILS approaches. I have a family to feed and a retirement to fund. Aviation is costly and it needs to pay more. Pilots at all levels need to be paid much more and deserve much more time off so that they can have a life.
As things are today it is not worth it. It costs too much to become trained and educated for too little in return.The career use to be worth something. I don not see an upside and would appreciate your take on it.
From my perspective it seems as though the latest generation of pilots are selling themselves mostly on romance and fantasy. Aviation is my profession. Not a religion, personal quest or even hobby. As such it needs to pay a wage that is worthy of the cost it took to get there and provide stability and benefits.
Skyhigh
Last edited by SkyHigh; 11-30-2010 at 09:57 PM.
12-01-2010, 07:50 AM
#32
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jan 2009
Position: Airbus 319/320 Captain
Posts: 880
brianb,
Aviation has changed. When I was a kid pilots lived well. They were respected members of society. In my home town there were several prominent airline pilots who were well known land and business owners. They sent their families to France for the summer and Hawaii in the winter. They owned the biggest houses in town and bought a new car every two years.
Today even the legacy pilots are struggling to maintain middle class. It takes a huge amount of sacrifice and risk to be an airline pilot. The best the average airline pilot can hope for today is to make more than a mailman at some point.
I am sorry I do not see an upside for those who are starting out today. I will not accept my compensation in sunsets and ILS approaches. I have a family to feed and a retirement to fund. Aviation is costly and it needs to pay more. Pilots at all levels need to be paid much more and deserve much more time off so that they can have a life.
As things are today it is not worth it. It costs too much to become trained and educated for too little in return.The career use to be worth something. I don not see an upside and would appreciate your take on it.
From my perspective it seems as though the latest generation of pilots are selling themselves mostly on romance and fantasy. Aviation is my profession. Not a religion, personal quest or even hobby. As such it needs to pay a wage that is worthy of the cost it took to get there and provide stability and benefits.
Skyhigh
Aviation has changed. When I was a kid pilots lived well. They were respected members of society. In my home town there were several prominent airline pilots who were well known land and business owners. They sent their families to France for the summer and Hawaii in the winter. They owned the biggest houses in town and bought a new car every two years.
Today even the legacy pilots are struggling to maintain middle class. It takes a huge amount of sacrifice and risk to be an airline pilot. The best the average airline pilot can hope for today is to make more than a mailman at some point.
I am sorry I do not see an upside for those who are starting out today. I will not accept my compensation in sunsets and ILS approaches. I have a family to feed and a retirement to fund. Aviation is costly and it needs to pay more. Pilots at all levels need to be paid much more and deserve much more time off so that they can have a life.
As things are today it is not worth it. It costs too much to become trained and educated for too little in return.The career use to be worth something. I don not see an upside and would appreciate your take on it.
From my perspective it seems as though the latest generation of pilots are selling themselves mostly on romance and fantasy. Aviation is my profession. Not a religion, personal quest or even hobby. As such it needs to pay a wage that is worthy of the cost it took to get there and provide stability and benefits.
Skyhigh
12-01-2010, 11:30 AM
#33
Self Employed.
Joined APC: May 2005
Position: Corporate Pilot
Posts: 7,119
You are welcome
Again Sky, you prove my point over and over again by your standard replys to my posts. You ONLY look at the downside of being a professional Aviator and either can't or won't accept the fact that it also has an upside. I leave the positive aspects to the people who do it for a living. If you want to "pan" the profession, be my guest, your very good at it. I (again) choose to look at all sides of the equation and then make an informed decision and I would recommend this approach to anyone regarding any profession. Weigh the goood and the not so good. Your oppinion is appreciated but it is not the only one. Thank you for your time and consideration in this vitally important matter.
I don't get it. There is no up side. I personally could go the rest of my life never sitting in a jetliner again and be quite happy. I fly because I am good at it and for the satisfaction that comes from making a living. It is my profession. A job. Take away compensation and there is nothing left to talk about.
Am I supposed to say things like: The hotels are fun, the travel benefits are great, flying an ILS approach is akin to touching the face of God? I don't know what it is that you want from me.
I get the feeling that our disconnect comes from an attitudinal difference between the generations. You are into aviation to satisfy a childhood fantasy and I am here to make money. Perhaps when I was younger I held those ideas but now my life is outside of the flight deck. Had I known what lied ahead myself and most of my generation would not have taken a single flight lesson.
A quote from my first flight instructor. "I don't care what I fly so long as they pay me". (as in paid well that is)
Skyhigh
Last edited by SkyHigh; 12-01-2010 at 11:43 AM.
12-01-2010, 05:57 PM
#34
Line Holder
Joined APC: Sep 2009
Position: E-175 FO
Posts: 72
I don't get it. There is no up side. I personally could go the rest of my life never sitting in a jetliner again and be quite happy. I fly because I am good at it and for the satisfaction that comes from making a living. It is my profession. A job. Take away compensation and there is nothing left to talk about.
My opinion, and this is the last I'll say, is that the aviation industry is where it is more to attitudes like yours than the other kind. When the market is flooded with people just looking for 'a job', the people who would fly for the love of flying are priced out of the market.
People who are just looking for 'a job' have everything horribly wrong in life, in my opinion.
Do what you love. Follow your passions and dreams. Anyone can die with a few million in the bank, but you don't put your initials up on the scoreboard at the end with your wealth. What matters is what you do with your life...and that, only to you.
A life lived in fear, anger, or unhappiness is a life wasted... regardless of what anyone may believe, all this fiction about wealth, power, influence... systems of government, social status and influence... is all a meta-world we've created in our minds. Little invisible walls that keep us from truly being happy. Little rules that are beaten into us by society, until we're gnarled old creatures, slavering over our greasy little hoard, daring anyone to try to take what little vestige of a life we've managed to carve for ourselves.
It's a huge, beautiful world, full of sunsets and clouds, the stygian black of a moonless night and a sky painted with stars, the space between two thunderstorms on a lonely evening, dancing a dance that none but a pilot will ever see; a world full of danger and daring and beauty and grace, a magical dance of matter and energy, photons and protons and anti-neutrinos, where the laughing face of God in his many forms looks down on His creation and grants them the one exquisite chance to breathe, eat, play and live in the moment*.
There is so much, and at the same time, so little. Do we really want to spend such precious few moments in the blind pursuit of wealth and status?
A quote from my first flight instructor. "I don't care what I fly so long as they pay me". (as in paid well that is)
Let me close again by saying that I don't expect you to agree with me in any way. I fully expect the opposite, and would invite a final statement in response, as this is my own. I certainly don't expect to change your mind, or anyone else's; I merely wish to paint things in a way that I feel is too rarely considered. I mean, it really is a beautiful world out there, taken as a balance. All the good, all the evil... all colors in a moment, a single moment that will exist only once in infinitesimal duration and never come again, preceded and succeeded by infinite moments of equal beauty and fullness. It always saddens me to see bitter, unhappy people; it always seems, as they say, such a waste of spirit.
Respectfully,
~Fox
12-01-2010, 07:40 PM
#36
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jan 2009
Position: Airbus 319/320 Captain
Posts: 880
Then perhaps you should have taken all that money you spent on aviation and gotten an MBA. It's not too late... The business world always needs people who only care about the money.
My opinion, and this is the last I'll say, is that the aviation industry is where it is more to attitudes like yours than the other kind. When the market is flooded with people just looking for 'a job', the people who would fly for the love of flying are priced out of the market.
People who are just looking for 'a job' have everything horribly wrong in life, in my opinion.
Do what you love. Follow your passions and dreams. Anyone can die with a few million in the bank, but you don't put your initials up on the scoreboard at the end with your wealth. What matters is what you do with your life...and that, only to you.
A life lived in fear, anger, or unhappiness is a life wasted... regardless of what anyone may believe, all this fiction about wealth, power, influence... systems of government, social status and influence... is all a meta-world we've created in our minds. Little invisible walls that keep us from truly being happy. Little rules that are beaten into us by society, until we're gnarled old creatures, slavering over our greasy little hoard, daring anyone to try to take what little vestige of a life we've managed to carve for ourselves.
It's a huge, beautiful world, full of sunsets and clouds, the stygian black of a moonless night and a sky painted with stars, the space between two thunderstorms on a lonely evening, dancing a dance that none but a pilot will ever see; a world full of danger and daring and beauty and grace, a magical dance of matter and energy, photons and protons and anti-neutrinos, where the laughing face of God in his many forms looks down on His creation and grants them the one exquisite chance to breathe, eat, play and live in the moment*.
There is so much, and at the same time, so little. Do we really want to spend such precious few moments in the blind pursuit of wealth and status?
I would like to gently suggest that I believe you might have misunderstood the meaning behind that.
Let me close again by saying that I don't expect you to agree with me in any way. I fully expect the opposite, and would invite a final statement in response, as this is my own. I certainly don't expect to change your mind, or anyone else's; I merely wish to paint things in a way that I feel is too rarely considered. I mean, it really is a beautiful world out there, taken as a balance. All the good, all the evil... all colors in a moment, a single moment that will exist only once in infinitesimal duration and never come again, preceded and succeeded by infinite moments of equal beauty and fullness. It always saddens me to see bitter, unhappy people; it always seems, as they say, such a waste of spirit.
Respectfully,
~Fox
My opinion, and this is the last I'll say, is that the aviation industry is where it is more to attitudes like yours than the other kind. When the market is flooded with people just looking for 'a job', the people who would fly for the love of flying are priced out of the market.
People who are just looking for 'a job' have everything horribly wrong in life, in my opinion.
Do what you love. Follow your passions and dreams. Anyone can die with a few million in the bank, but you don't put your initials up on the scoreboard at the end with your wealth. What matters is what you do with your life...and that, only to you.
A life lived in fear, anger, or unhappiness is a life wasted... regardless of what anyone may believe, all this fiction about wealth, power, influence... systems of government, social status and influence... is all a meta-world we've created in our minds. Little invisible walls that keep us from truly being happy. Little rules that are beaten into us by society, until we're gnarled old creatures, slavering over our greasy little hoard, daring anyone to try to take what little vestige of a life we've managed to carve for ourselves.
It's a huge, beautiful world, full of sunsets and clouds, the stygian black of a moonless night and a sky painted with stars, the space between two thunderstorms on a lonely evening, dancing a dance that none but a pilot will ever see; a world full of danger and daring and beauty and grace, a magical dance of matter and energy, photons and protons and anti-neutrinos, where the laughing face of God in his many forms looks down on His creation and grants them the one exquisite chance to breathe, eat, play and live in the moment*.
There is so much, and at the same time, so little. Do we really want to spend such precious few moments in the blind pursuit of wealth and status?
I would like to gently suggest that I believe you might have misunderstood the meaning behind that.
Let me close again by saying that I don't expect you to agree with me in any way. I fully expect the opposite, and would invite a final statement in response, as this is my own. I certainly don't expect to change your mind, or anyone else's; I merely wish to paint things in a way that I feel is too rarely considered. I mean, it really is a beautiful world out there, taken as a balance. All the good, all the evil... all colors in a moment, a single moment that will exist only once in infinitesimal duration and never come again, preceded and succeeded by infinite moments of equal beauty and fullness. It always saddens me to see bitter, unhappy people; it always seems, as they say, such a waste of spirit.
Respectfully,
~Fox
12-02-2010, 07:44 AM
#37
Self Employed.
Joined APC: May 2005
Position: Corporate Pilot
Posts: 7,119
Foxy and brianB
Foxy and brianb,
I appreciate the hippie sentiment. I really do. I get where you guys are coming from but most jobs are just that... jobs. The guy who picks up your trash does not do it for the 5:00AM sunrise. The people who plumbed your house are not there because they dreamed of it as kids.
Job Definition: A regular activity performed in exchange for payment, especially as one's trade, occupation, or profession.
People work for money not because of soul searching. We need money to support what does mean more to us, our families and lives. Flying is just a job and that is all. If you truly love to fly then you should not do it as a career since it eventually will suck the life out of it. Good and positive feelings about aviation will be replaced with bad ones. The magic of flight will be exchanged with the nine leg daily grind.
Young single people get into aviation with similar naive attitudes only to learn later as adults that they wish they had made a different choice. Your attitudes are self serving, self centered, unoriginal, childish and naive. Some people put their art into their work (single people) other it into their life (everyone else). I became a pilot because I thought it would pay more than a mailman and that I could have more time off to be with the family. I wanted to build a high quality life on top of a good paying solid career.
I am a pilot. I work at a factory called an airline where I manufacture approaches and landings all day long. I do it because I am good at it and have the ability to sit through endless hours of mindless rote memorization and repetition. The result of my efforts is a paycheck that I can take home to the wife and kids.
Wealth means choices. Wealth means family. Wealth means having the ability to help yourself and others. People who are wealthy live longer, have better lives and live with much less stress. They have more control over themselves and their situation. My joy is at home and with the life I have created.
I know that in time you both will begin to understand what it is that I am talking about. Foxy possibly already does since she clearly has the money to complete her training but has not yet pulled the plug on her IT career. Something is holding her back and that thing is called an internal instinct for self preservation. Work to live. Don't live to work.
Currently my wife and I own small businesses that we work from home. We live on a small grass fed beef ranch and our five (soon to be six) kids are all home schooled. I totally get the hippie thing but I am telling you that you are missing the boat. Flying is just a job. People like you are ruining aviation as a place to make a living.
You guys talk like hippies but are missing the point. Your positions are shallow, childish and self centered. A bunch of idealistic ill placed fantasy but that is OK. We do have a lot in common and you both are welcome at my home anytime.
I really enjoy the debate.
Skyhigh
P.S. My aunt is from the bay area and holds similar attitudes as you guys. You are not from SFO by any chance are you?
I appreciate the hippie sentiment. I really do. I get where you guys are coming from but most jobs are just that... jobs. The guy who picks up your trash does not do it for the 5:00AM sunrise. The people who plumbed your house are not there because they dreamed of it as kids.
Job Definition: A regular activity performed in exchange for payment, especially as one's trade, occupation, or profession.
People work for money not because of soul searching. We need money to support what does mean more to us, our families and lives. Flying is just a job and that is all. If you truly love to fly then you should not do it as a career since it eventually will suck the life out of it. Good and positive feelings about aviation will be replaced with bad ones. The magic of flight will be exchanged with the nine leg daily grind.
Young single people get into aviation with similar naive attitudes only to learn later as adults that they wish they had made a different choice. Your attitudes are self serving, self centered, unoriginal, childish and naive. Some people put their art into their work (single people) other it into their life (everyone else). I became a pilot because I thought it would pay more than a mailman and that I could have more time off to be with the family. I wanted to build a high quality life on top of a good paying solid career.
I am a pilot. I work at a factory called an airline where I manufacture approaches and landings all day long. I do it because I am good at it and have the ability to sit through endless hours of mindless rote memorization and repetition. The result of my efforts is a paycheck that I can take home to the wife and kids.
Wealth means choices. Wealth means family. Wealth means having the ability to help yourself and others. People who are wealthy live longer, have better lives and live with much less stress. They have more control over themselves and their situation. My joy is at home and with the life I have created.
I know that in time you both will begin to understand what it is that I am talking about. Foxy possibly already does since she clearly has the money to complete her training but has not yet pulled the plug on her IT career. Something is holding her back and that thing is called an internal instinct for self preservation. Work to live. Don't live to work.
Currently my wife and I own small businesses that we work from home. We live on a small grass fed beef ranch and our five (soon to be six) kids are all home schooled. I totally get the hippie thing but I am telling you that you are missing the boat. Flying is just a job. People like you are ruining aviation as a place to make a living.
You guys talk like hippies but are missing the point. Your positions are shallow, childish and self centered. A bunch of idealistic ill placed fantasy but that is OK. We do have a lot in common and you both are welcome at my home anytime.
I really enjoy the debate. Skyhigh
P.S. My aunt is from the bay area and holds similar attitudes as you guys. You are not from SFO by any chance are you?
12-02-2010, 07:54 AM
#38
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jan 2009
Position: Airbus 319/320 Captain
Posts: 880
Don't hold back Sky, it's not good for you. I forgive you for your un-warranted insults, again. Stay at the farm Sky, them cows need milking and those chickens need a plucking. I have a wealth of adjectives to describe people like you but I have already been slapped several times by the mods for using them. You are, without a doubt, unreachable. Good luck, I think.
Last edited by brianb; 12-02-2010 at 07:56 AM. Reason: spelling
12-02-2010, 08:34 AM
#39
Self Employed.
Joined APC: May 2005
Position: Corporate Pilot
Posts: 7,119
Bay Area
Don't hold back Sky, it's not good for you. I forgive you for your un-warranted insults, again. Stay at the farm Sky, them cows need milking and those chickens need a plucking. I have a wealth of adjectives to describe people like you but I have already been slapped several times by the mods for using them. You are, without a doubt, unreachable. Good luck, I think.
If that is the case then you are correct. From your perspective I (and the rest of the nation) are unreachable.
I have just been told that there is a cow in the garden.
Skyhigh
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