USMCFLYR

Salty -

A fine message - but one that will go ignored I'm afraid. You were much better with the fancy typing skills and qoting others to make your point than I ever was , but I have given Sky the EXACT same advice. I've told him that his extremist downside views shut out more people than help. He claims education is his cause and I have told him that a more balanced approach - admitting that there are goods while making sure that others know of the dangers - would get his message across to the masses. It is unfortunately in my opinion that his dramatics reminds me of my new teenage daughter who has no perspective on life and everything little thing is the end all of the world as we know it. It is just hard to take any of her VALID concerns and situations seriously because she cries THE SKY IS FALLING at every chance.

Sky likes to incite. There is NO DOUBT that he had SOME good times in flying, but he rarely (IF EVER) mentions them. As you mentioned - he has some great stories and even better lessons to share with other aviators of all experience levels - but he does not communicate his message in an effective manner.
Thanks for taking a shot at it though Salty.

BushwickBill -

Appreciate your insight - but I certainly wouldn't have expected every day to be peaches and herbs in Alaska bush flying - agreed? That environment, and the challenges associated with it, was part of the draw to bush flying. I seriously doubt that I would have stayed in Alaska forever and made that my life's work because I had other plans....and I pursued them in spite of the negative nellies standing in my way at every corner.

If some less than desirable conditions was all that it was going to take to scare me away from the job, then I wouldn't have lasted long in my last profession either. Maybe I wanted to try the bush flying to see if I had what it takes to make it; doubtful I will ever know

As far as what you like and where it sounds like you may have ended up - - well you and I think A LOT alike!

USMCFLYR

SkyHigh

I just believe that there is nothing wrong with telling the down side. America is about optimism and that is great for a Disney move however real life has consequences. People need to know the unattractive side of the issue as well.

People do respond. Just the other day I had a conversation with a young person who was about to blow 85K on flight training and another 65 to 85K on a four year degree in aviation. After a short discussion he was able to think of the prospect in a whole new light. Not a good idea to blow close to 200K on a career that barely pays more than that of a mailman. I could have saved a small fortune there. I do not believe that I am negative. I merely present the facts as I know them.

In addition I do not know how to turn my back on a lifelong dream that took most of my resources and the best of my young years. I can understand how a short term flight school factory kid could drop flying without a second thought. The flight school loan will be there but the rest could have only been a one or two year distraction. I have spent the majority of my life focused on this one goal.

Aviation is not like a moment on American idol. You can't just send in an application. It takes most of two decades and a small fortune to reach a point where you will discover if your efforts were worth while or not. I blew the best of my resources on an empty dream. No one told me how much of a long shot this career was. All I heard were stories about lucky pilots who made it. People need to hear both sides of the story. My disappointment will not go away overnight.

Side Note: the local University stopped asking working major airline pilots to address the student body after 9-11 since their attitudes have been so dark. Go figure.

Skyhigh

SkyHigh

I have noticed that my most ardent detractors tend to be single guys who are married to the profession. No big bills to pay. No band recitals or t-ball games to go to. They don't have the same pains and challenges that most people their age do.

It is easy to miss the true cost of the profession if you don't care where you live, how much you earn or if you get weekends off or not. I have seen attitudes change dramatically once a wedding date is set or the first born comes home from the hospital.

Others realize too late what they have given in blind pursuit of the obsession. They reach middle age without much in their personal lives. I have always been well aware of the opportunity cost. Along the way my internal accountant kept close tabs on the pros and cons.

As a result I feel that I have a lot to share here though I realize that it is received by some as an insult to everything they stand for. My advice is to take a step back once in a while and take an accounting of how much a life in the sky really costs.

Skyhigh

SaltyDog

Not at all...... Yes, you are very negative on aviation. You only express the negative side with reslish. (perverse pleasure I suppose, masochistic even to frequent airline pilot internet sites)
You only express bitterness and rage at any who still wants to try in spite of your wishes that they kill their dreams. Waflypilot is a much better example of someone who gave all, decided to pursue other ventures. A credible voice.
Am sure that others will continue to perservere despite yout best efforts and will leave you dissappointed for a lifetime as well. So sad my friend.
Cheers anyway.
the middle age, married over 20, kids, made the games, camping, etc. Never bought into the Capt lifestyle, live way within my means and despite it all not roses (listen to my neighbors complain about the 9-5 world more than me) detractor <g>

SkyHigh

I agree. Most silently leave the profession never to speak of their flying days again. From my experience most airlines are filled with disgruntled pilots who hate their job at times. They are not ones to waste another minute of their day by spending time on a forum like this.

How is that an equitable system of information exchange? It is human nature to avoid painful memories or experiences. Those who have had their dreams crushed usually just fade away. New pilots never get to hear about the downside yet they are surrounded daily with people who have traveled the same roads to their destruction.

The flag wavers are out there everyday spreading false hope and inaccurate information. More pilots should be here to express their hardships. You refer to my words as being bitter. I am just being honest. It is not common (in aviation)to hear the harsh reality that is not being sugar coated.

Skyhigh

SaltyDog

Most jobs are filled by people who are exasperated or "hate" their jobs at times. That is not a distinguishing mark unique to airline pilots. Imagine coal miners, warehouse managers, deckhands, construction workers, Doctors, etc experience these characteristics. Poorly defined nor unique so applies to all jobs. Next....

In my youth, was hit by naysayers like you. Your predecessors did their best to dissuade me from even attempting the rigors of aviation. They failed, thankfully. I did listen to the ones who were not bitter though, they taught me to not get a degree that was worthwhile outside of flying (Got an engineering degree as a backup). They suggested many aspects of aviation that may be enjoyable and compatible to my dreams. I did not consider them failures, but sages. They had tried, hit by challenges, made decisions like you. Those thresholds are different for all of us. You suggest that your experience applies across the board. Wrong.
I do not mentor (for 25+ years) folks with bad facts or rosy glasses. I also do not steal dreams. You try to steal dreams and that is why you don't see your bitterness. You appear to nurture your anger. You have such potential; to be a rational voice and way forwward in post airline careers. You just smash dreams though to the best of your ability and rationalize that anyone who encourages an aviation career is spreading false hope. These innacuracies reduce your credibility with everyone.

hindsight2020

The majority of airline dudes I know (from the military side) are one domicile base change, one contract change, one fickle change of a specific construct, away from up and quitting. From the guy commuting to NYC from the South to live like a beggar across the airport (in his late 40s!) and who would, as a senior field grader, take out the trash in the squadron building if it meant a week of RPA/TP/RMPs in lieu of the commute to a "it cost me money to go to work" reserve line. To the top 10 (literally, less than # 10 ) seniority regional FO who won't touch the CA upgrade with a 10 foot pole because there's not enough money in the world that would make him give up the ONLY reason he even entertains the job anymore (day trips and in-base domicile). To the FO who told the wife, kid and dog to STHU and we're taking the AGR to UPT-chithole-land 'cause the airline outlook every other Friday was giving him motion sickness and emotional whiplash. And these are senior military aircrew, IPs and the like. Banner civilian careers alright. They won't tell the aspiring kid any of that, but they tell me that as a peer. Not exactly the chipper crowd some wish to label the working 121 demographic as. And some of you think that would be loaded,toxic and disingenuous to push forth to an aspirant? What could be more genuine? But our Schadenfreude clouds the manner in which we speak to others.

None of them [my peers] would pursue their present vocation absent the Guard/Reserve side gig or the ability to have MIL LEAVE available to them. None. I find THAT a disingenuous construct in that the median 121 pilot does not have a Guard/Reserve gig available to them.

So my peers are no different than the retiree or trust fund hobby crowd, or the perma-bachelor pilot, when it comes to substantiating their vocational solvency. To take career advice from people with any type of these, economic or non-economic, underlying subsidy constructs would be more than fool-hardy. I do believe most of them, as upstanding men and officers, would qualify their answers when offering career advice (ergo, admit their secondary source of income), but some would not even mention it. That's the optimism-biased lie people need to be concerned about, not SKyHigh's accurate indictment of the airline vocational solvency for the median aspirant, absent these artificialities.

So leave the "attiude determines your altitude" mantra to NASA and their dead space shuttle program; oh the irony of that agency, talk about becoming the "I don't owe your kids a role model" post-golden-day Charles Barkley of science- and aviation-aspiring youth. The rent is due on the 1st and they don't take ILS for payment. Attitude doesn't keep my peers in the cockpit; very specific and pragmatic series of economic incentives and offsets do, which in their absence they wouldn't blink twice to punch out. More to the point of this thread, it would leave the kid who got career advice from them with an empty bag of out-of-context "attitude" advice that doesn't apply to him nor sets him up for success. But of course that would be the kid's fault too, among this peanut gallery. Y'all can't have the cake and eat it too fellas. Skyhigh's assertion on the outcome of this career for the 50 percentile is right on. The fallacy is to suggest only people who have left the profession have a bone to pick with it. Plenty of disheartened laborers plague the field, and their grievances are justified. They just simply do not make them public because they have been conditioned by the belief that pessimism or skepticism is a socially undesirable trait. So they soldier on and push forth the lie until they themselves can't afford it anymore. Then they too will be called "quitters". I can live with the indictment of a couple fools who wish to blame my POV on an "attitude problem" while they also fail to contribute a red cent to the solvency and livelihood of my "more than one soul on board" household.

Skyhigh, your message is right on and has a place on this discourse, and it's not a marginalized message. Rock on brother.

SkyHigh

I am not a dream stealer. I merely drag the facts into the daylight for all to see and let them come to their own conclusions. Most then realize that they want a life and turn away. Others press on and to those I wish the best.

If my words are enough to dissuade some then I have saved a life.

Skyhigh

SaltyDog

Hindsight2020,
Civilian/Military/135/121 background.
I call BS on the first comment. I listen to the bellaching too.
Does the indutry have troubles? Yes, since the beginning of airlines. It's like swearing, nothing new here, all this is a rehash. Just the first time you are going through the experience. Well, some is rough, and some is OK. All deserves to be honestly discussed at all levels of said experience. But believe it should be objectively stated and not caustic. I find the naysayers caustic and bitter as you claim I am full of it. I have succeeded in the miltary flying, into the commercial side. Am still very realistic. Understand your viewpoint, but to say it is decidely one way is an understatement.

Have a sibling in the regionals without any mil background and is fully engaged on the realities of the business (he has a furlough under the belt from another company and quickly moved on to another opportunity and is an F/O )
The military construct=trust fund baby is pushing the limits of credulity. Have been in the arena and true enough for some for awhile, but most use the crutch because they want to stay flying, you make it seem as though EVERYONE is looking to leave. Fine, explain why they are not? I work with the same folks in the mil so I hear their honest responses too.
I quit the active duty military. I did in a furloughing environment, didn't have to fly, recruited at a head hunting firm using the mil and engineering background, but passed on it. Anyone else can too if it is so debilitating. Why I believe Skyhigh has potentially a terriffic and very useful voice. I heard guys like him in my teens but they tempered it with, but "now that you intellectually know the potential pitfalls, good luck"
Well, low and behold, being too stupid to quit worked out. I hit alot of downturns. Personal decision how many obstacles you will tolerate. I have talked kids outta flying too, because in discussion let them come to the realization that they did not have the desire to really fly. But it was their choice, their realization. Not one painted in constant abject "YOU WILL FAIL, IT SUCKS" scream.

I again point out Waflyboy as a good example of someone who was in the cockpit, decided to change jobs, and presents a positive element to the discussion. If I ever was to make the change, I would consult with him or point him out as a positive counter to a dreamy youngster because he is a motivating person, not negative.

TonyC

Tell them the truth: their daddy is a sad little man who obsesses over his mistakes.



Make that, their daddy is a sad little delusional man ...




... sad little, delusional, uninformed man ...



You seem to think you're providing a service by spreading your story of failure.

You're not.






.