Financial Independence
05-24-2009, 01:05 PM
#21
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Sep 2008
Position: B767
Posts: 1,901
The majority of my friends outside of work do not fly for a living. They also make half or less of what we do too. Here is the irony: I know captains in the $200K+ range that must pick up extra flying and still barely have their heads above water. At the same time, I know people who make a fourth of that and have money to put into their savings account at the end of the month. And they say we're smart because we fly jets. 
Now that I have my debts paid off, I am so anti-debt that I will be on the street collecting aluminum cans before I EVER carry a credit card balance.
Unfortunately, some people never get it and spend the rest of their life living paycheck to paycheck, even when they're pulling down significantly over $100k/yr.
05-24-2009, 01:10 PM
#22
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: May 2006
Position: Jet Pilot
Posts: 797
I hear you... When I first got out of college, I had filled up credit cards, a new motorcycle, and a new car. Absolutely stupid. When my loans came out of deferment, I didn't have much money left over at the end of the month. It took years of busting my butt and sacrifice to get out of debt while also paying cash for my flight training. It was hard but very good lesson.
Now that I have my debts paid off, I am so anti-debt that I will be on the street collecting aluminum cans before I EVER carry a credit card balance.
Unfortunately, some people never get it and spend the rest of their life living paycheck to paycheck, even when they're pulling down significantly over $100k/yr.
Now that I have my debts paid off, I am so anti-debt that I will be on the street collecting aluminum cans before I EVER carry a credit card balance.
Unfortunately, some people never get it and spend the rest of their life living paycheck to paycheck, even when they're pulling down significantly over $100k/yr.
Many believe a bigger paycheck or more money is the answer, when in reality they desperately need a simple course in basic personal finance.
05-24-2009, 01:56 PM
#23
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Oct 2006
Position: NU Guy
Posts: 437
Another skillset
I have a different skillset outside of aviation that I developed prior to entering aviation. Recently I tried (quite unsucessfully) to re-engage in the former field of work. The switch was more difficult then others have made it out to be. Course timing/salary expectations had alot to due with my lack of success. Good luck to those looking right now.
05-24-2009, 04:19 PM
#24
Self Employed.
Thread Starter
Joined APC: May 2005
Position: Corporate Pilot
Posts: 7,119
Where you live
Yes, I've heard all about these "other positions" outside of flying that pay enormous salaries.
Here's the deal - this isn't my first job. I have a mechanical engineering degree and worked in that field for six years before getting into aviation. I still have a lot of friends that are in engineering.
The average starting salary for an entry level engineer is pretty close to this alleged "call center job" at the local gas company. Now, I suppose it's possible that Puckhead's young friend showed up at the call center and was offered a job that pays 185% higher than the average call center worker gets, but I doubt it.
source:
Average Level I Outbound Representative (Call Center) Salary. Level I Outbound Representative (Call
I've been on these boards a long time, and I've heard so many of these BS stories it'd make your head spin. So many pilots that have not a clue about the outside world, thinking everybody's out there making over six figures, home with their families all day, playing golf on weekends. So sorry, it ain't true. The "outside" world sucks pretty bad too.
The pay and QOL for an entry level regional airline pilot is terrible, no doubt about it. But there's a whole other world of aviation out there, and if one wants to make more money as an entry level pilot it's very possible.
Here's the deal - this isn't my first job. I have a mechanical engineering degree and worked in that field for six years before getting into aviation. I still have a lot of friends that are in engineering.
The average starting salary for an entry level engineer is pretty close to this alleged "call center job" at the local gas company. Now, I suppose it's possible that Puckhead's young friend showed up at the call center and was offered a job that pays 185% higher than the average call center worker gets, but I doubt it.
source:
Average Level I Outbound Representative (Call Center) Salary. Level I Outbound Representative (Call
I've been on these boards a long time, and I've heard so many of these BS stories it'd make your head spin. So many pilots that have not a clue about the outside world, thinking everybody's out there making over six figures, home with their families all day, playing golf on weekends. So sorry, it ain't true. The "outside" world sucks pretty bad too.
The pay and QOL for an entry level regional airline pilot is terrible, no doubt about it. But there's a whole other world of aviation out there, and if one wants to make more money as an entry level pilot it's very possible.
I think that a lot of the reason why pilots can have such different perspectives on outside professions is in regards to where they live. In the west firefighters and police are very well paid. Back east those same professions can expect half or less.
Pilots however are fairly equally paid thought the nation in similar positions. The cost of living however is not the same. A starter home where I live has come down a bit however it is still around 180-200K. That is why a guy who works at the dump here can make nearly 50K.
Skyhigh
05-24-2009, 04:56 PM
#25
Line Holder
Joined APC: Aug 2007
Position: CRJ FO
Posts: 62
The majority of my friends outside of work do not fly for a living. They also make half or less of what we do too. Here is the irony: I know captains in the $200K+ range that must pick up extra flying and still barely have their heads above water. At the same time, I know people who make a fourth of that and have money to put into their savings account at the end of the month. And they say we're smart because we fly jets.
"Many believe a bigger paycheck or more money is the answer, when in reality they desperately need a simple course in basic personal finance."
Personal Finance is less about how much you make, and more about how much you spend. A previous poster mentioned that after taking a 70% pay cut after a job loss, he still manages to spend less than he brings in (albeit after some major lifestyle adjustments). Although we would all like to earn more money, the reality is that we can become financially independent by saving more/ spending less. Saving is a less sexy topic to talk about than earning more money, but it's equally as important (if not more important) to achieving personal financial independence.
And on another note, I'm bothered by people who think that their job owes them a six figure income, a $500,000 house, 3 cars and a boat immediately after beginning their craft. This is the attitude held by people like the captains LabRat mentioned who makes $200,000+ a year, yet can never seem to get ahead. Living beyond one's means is the single most detrimental pitfall to personal financial independence. Remember that true wealth and financial independence are built over time and as the result of living within one's means...not merely as the result of a $200,000 a year job.
Like financial advisor Dave Ramsey says, "Live like nobody else, so that you can live like nobody else." (i.e. live below your means, so that one day you can reap the rewards of your financial discipline and live very well!)
05-24-2009, 08:11 PM
#26
Self Employed.
Thread Starter
Joined APC: May 2005
Position: Corporate Pilot
Posts: 7,119
Income
I think Lab Rat hit the nail on the head when he said:
"Many believe a bigger paycheck or more money is the answer, when in reality they desperately need a simple course in basic personal finance."
Personal Finance is less about how much you make, and more about how much you spend. A previous poster mentioned that after taking a 70% pay cut after a job loss, he still manages to spend less than he brings in (albeit after some major lifestyle adjustments). Although we would all like to earn more money, the reality is that we can become financially independent by saving more/ spending less. Saving is a less sexy topic to talk about than earning more money, but it's equally as important (if not more important) to achieving personal financial independence.
And on another note, I'm bothered by people who think that their job owes them a six figure income, a $500,000 house, 3 cars and a boat immediately after beginning their craft. This is the attitude held by people like the captains LabRat mentioned who makes $200,000+ a year, yet can never seem to get ahead. Living beyond one's means is the single most detrimental pitfall to personal financial independence. Remember that true wealth and financial independence are built over time and as the result of living within one's means...not merely as the result of a $200,000 a year job.
Like financial advisor Dave Ramsey says, "Live like nobody else, so that you can live like nobody else." (i.e. live below your means, so that one day you can reap the rewards of your financial discipline and live very well!)
"Many believe a bigger paycheck or more money is the answer, when in reality they desperately need a simple course in basic personal finance."
Personal Finance is less about how much you make, and more about how much you spend. A previous poster mentioned that after taking a 70% pay cut after a job loss, he still manages to spend less than he brings in (albeit after some major lifestyle adjustments). Although we would all like to earn more money, the reality is that we can become financially independent by saving more/ spending less. Saving is a less sexy topic to talk about than earning more money, but it's equally as important (if not more important) to achieving personal financial independence.
And on another note, I'm bothered by people who think that their job owes them a six figure income, a $500,000 house, 3 cars and a boat immediately after beginning their craft. This is the attitude held by people like the captains LabRat mentioned who makes $200,000+ a year, yet can never seem to get ahead. Living beyond one's means is the single most detrimental pitfall to personal financial independence. Remember that true wealth and financial independence are built over time and as the result of living within one's means...not merely as the result of a $200,000 a year job.
Like financial advisor Dave Ramsey says, "Live like nobody else, so that you can live like nobody else." (i.e. live below your means, so that one day you can reap the rewards of your financial discipline and live very well!)
Sometimes I get the feeling that pilots like using frugal living as a means of justifying an under performing career. Suzie Orman was shocked at how much a pilot made when one called into her show. Dave Ramsey I am sure would have something to say in regards to laying out a fortune in training and education to make what a pilot does. Choosing a profession is an important step in regards to financial success as well.
I am certain that few financial advisers would recommend a career that pays so little after such a huge investment and risk as aviation. No amount of budgeting will be able to overcome that. A better plan is to figure out how to make a good living and then to make the most out of what you earn.
Skyhigh
05-26-2009, 11:22 AM
#27
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Sep 2008
Position: B767
Posts: 1,901
There are so many ways to save money on flight training, it is just astounding to me that people will fork out $100k+ for flight training, which sometimes doesn't even include CFI certs. This is nothing more than financial immaturity.
I am in complete agreement with you that aviation is NOT worth investing that much money into. I'd also say the same for an engineering degree, a business degree, a nursing degree, and a teaching degree. All can be done for MUCH cheaper.
For an aviation education, doing it on the cheap means research, self study, and making sure that each rating is mapped out within a budget. Use cheap planes, fly in a cheap area, and make sure you're flying 2-3x/wk. Build time by splitting it w/ a safety pilot, combine business trips with time building, etc.
When I was teaching, I showed all of my students how to do it on the cheap. Few took my advice to heart, mostly due to laziness. They just wanted to come fly, then go home and do whatever. The truly dedicated were rare, but they were my favorite students and they were much, much better off financially in the end.
Thread
Thread Starter
Forum
Replies
Last Post
