Rnav

hahaha. SJS induced comment.

I didn't realize their were higher standards at the regional level <sarcasm> My impression would be that working at a major is a higher standard.

Talking about patients, you even admit yourself you enrolled at a pilot factory. While many of us did the snail-paced FBO program...


But hey, your happy!

SkyHigh

I grew up in a suburb that had a lot of airline pilots who lived there. As a high school kid I got a job working for one of my friends father. He was a DC-10 captain for a well known legacy airline and had a business venture on the side that he owned along with a few other airline pilots. As an employee of this guy I was able to follow him around and got to know him and all his airline buddies very well.

They never seemed to go to work and did not seem to grasp even some of the more basic concepts of aviation. At the time I was taking private pilot ground school and once showed a VFR chart to my boss the airline captain. I remember him flipping it over and turning it upside down while trying to figure out what that big sheet of colorful paper was. When I told him that it was a VFR chart and that I wanted his help on something he told me that he had never seen one before and could not be of service.

He and his friends carried on like a bunch of middle aged frat boy adolescents. They lived on alcohol, adultery and debauchery. I listened to them as they shared stories about sleeping in flight and drunken nights abroad.I remember well being told that wedding vows were only in effect within two VOR's distance from home. When I asked for career advice to a man they each told me to "lie about my time and get hired as soon as possible". One of them proudly told me that he was in the air force and only flew an military version of the Cessna 172. He only barely had 1000 hours by the time he got out and was picked up at a major. He lied about the rest.

Another neighborhood airline pilot dad kept telling me to "get your commercial, 300 hundred hours and apply to UAL. They will hire you." He was a nice guy and never seemed to go to the extremes that the other pilots did. At the time UAL had a firm 250 hour minimum for applicants. However by the time I had my 300 hours things had changed.

Though I did not share in their lifestyle dreams I thought that if these guys could manage to not get fired and to keep a big jet right side up then there was a good chance that as a sober and dedicated person I could do well in the industry. They all seemed to make good money and had lots of time off. I will never forget one day when my friend and I skipped school to watch TV at my friends house. He grabbed the mail on our way in and when he sat down at the kitchen table he tore open a letter that was addressed to his dad. He then offered the letter to me to read and it was his dads paycheck and it was huge. My father in comparison worked very hard for his money. These guys seemed to party their way through their careers.

I expected to have a similar experience as all the pilots whom I saw growing up. It seemed irrational to me that after so much effort and sacrifice that I would not be valued for my skills. At the time there was a firm cut off of 30 years old at the majors. I did not think it would take me until my mid-thirties or early forties just to get the chance of being a new hire at a major. I thought that I would be well compensated for my sacrifices and that it would be a struggle but I certainly did not expect to be poor for as long as I was. I thought that most of the struggle and sacrifice I was facing would be the first three to five years as a flight engioneer at the majors. At the time there were a few commuters and no regionals. All it took was one or two thousand hours of flight time and a month as a learjet FO to get hired at a major. I thought that I was buying into a profession and not investing in a long shot dream.

SkyHigh

cargo hopeful

Sky, and please correct me if I’m wrong, so you made a CAREER DECISION based on the similar experiences as all the pilots whom you saw growing up? You never asked what the drawbacks to the industry were? That goes to my point. If you did ask what the drawbacks were and still pursed it without a proper backup plan, then whose fault is it really? And if you did not ask what the drawbacks were and went solely on what you saw growing up, then that’s just simply a very flawed research into a life long decision; and you know where the blame for that one lies as well.

Once again, drawbacks, did you not think there were any? Seriously!

SkyHigh

If there were any drawbacks my airline mentors did not offer any. At the time I remember them complaining about the first few years as a flight engioneer. However like others here like to mention every job has some drawbacks. These guys presented the career as a rolling party and at the time I think is was. I certainly felt able to deal with the job as they presented it to me.

Plenty of neighborhood airline fathers started their airline career during the time in the 1960's when people were hired straight into the majors without anything more than the 250 hours it took to get the commercial rating. My own father, an aerospace engioneer and private pilot, told stories of being personally and repeatedly solicited by a representative from American Airlines who followed him down the hall at UCLA as he was going from class to class. American Airlines offered to put him on salary while he completed the remainder of his commercial training, that was also to be paid for by AA, to then be followed by ground school to become a line pilot. Other airlines sent people and letters offering the same. (Sadly for me my father did not take any of those offers. )

As a 17 year old kid the profession was presented to me as a job that was fairly difficult to get in as much as it took; professional qualifications, four years of college, some experience, 20/20 vision, height and weight proportional physique, pass a two day physical, and you had to be under 30 years of age at the time of hire. It was a totally doable proposition at the time and completely worth the effort. Adults who were in the profession were giving me this information that I also witnessed first hand.

After growing up among airline pilot families and hearing my fathers stories of his brushes with the profession there was no other side to tell. The airlines paid a fortune to pilots who were occasionally hung over, underwhelmed and under worked by today's standards. As I sat in college I watched as upperclassmen graduated and would then return 6 months to two years later in uniform and addressing the class as a new hire for the airline of their dreams. What else was I supposed to think? The industry changed before I could get there.

Skyhigh

USMCFLYR

Sky:
How did military get hired back in these days?
In some ways Sky - you remind me of the souls who join the military and then complain when they find out they have to deploy or worse yet - possibly fire a weapon!!
Reading your life story (and I'm amazed that you seem to have had every type of flying job imaginable) that you didn't know the drawbacks fairly early on in your career.

USMCFLYR

SkyHigh

It is no big mystery. The hardships and drawbacks were acceptable back when the sacrifices were of a shorter duration, pilots were paid well and were given appropriate time off. Once you take that away all that is left are the shortcomings.

The only reason that I had a long, broad and drawn out career was because I had a long and painful ladder to climb in attempt of reaching my dream. I would have gladly given it all up to have been able to walk on to my career objective early on.

I wanted a profession. Something to build a life upon. I wanted to be able to have a family to take on vacations to Europe and to be able to provide a good life for them. What I got was a lonely and impoverished adventure instead.


Skyhigh

SkyHigh

In response to your military question. I do not think that commitments for pilots were nearly as long back then as they are now. Though I did not really follow what military pilots did very closely.

As I recall up until the late 1980's pilots had to be under 30, have 20/20 vision and pass a two day physical as a normal part of the interview process.

My vision is still 20/20 to this day.

Skyhigh

Cubdriver

Nice stories Sky. I had some boyhood pals whose father was one of those early 70's major airline guys and his was a similar story- luxury cars, big new houses, too much time off, couldn't keep a wife, wasn't there most of the time, and so on. The older son was mean and I could never figure out why. I did not attribute it to his father at the time or the broken home, and the father scared me how cool he was. There was this air of coldness about him, as though he couldn't quite accept that someone who had a new Thunderbird was also getting a divorce and losing his kids. My father was so nice, handsome and educated, this guy was just rich, mean, and overpaid although he as handsome. It was not a good sample of the airline life for me and I had no interest in aviation until high school, when several of my friends were headed for the Air Force. By then my vision had deteriorated from 20/20 and as you know that nixed the deal for pilot training back then. I guess in retrospect I am glad I did not pursue pilot training on my own since the industry had deteriorated by the late 80's.

SkyHigh

Back in the late 1980's when I was getting my private pilots license United Airlines was probably one of the biggest and most sought after airlines in the land. At the time I recall that they had a firm policy on accepting applications from pilots. You had to have at least 250 hours, a commercial license and a radio operators permit.

It was much easier to make it to a major airline then. There were few commuter airlines and no such thing as a regional. Most new hires had around 1200 hours, a college degree and were under 30 years of age. It still seemed difficult at the time but when compared to what pilots face today it was a walk in the park.

Since then I have seen the industry change. Every few years a new layer is added to the list of accomplishments needed to make it to the big time. Currently the industry needs to see pilots with at least a four year degree, 1000 hours of turbine multi PIC and sometimes a type rating just to apply. Competitive hiring qualifications often are much higher than that. Each layer of required experience can add years to the time it takes to reach a pilots career objective.

Recently a well known cargo operator added the requirement of trans oceanic experience to their list. Most pilot applicants currently come from the ranks of regional airlines. In order to get trans oceanic experience most will have to leave their jobs to seek employment in an entirely new branch of aviation. No small sacrifice.

As a result of the added layers pilots are getting older and older before reaching a legacy airline. Air Inc use to keep track of average pilot ages upon reaching a legacy airline. I remember in 2000 the average was around 33 then in 2004 it was 38 now it could be 42.

I believe that most of the controversy between pilot groups and on this forum is because of differing expectations that come from pilots who started their careers at different times. I expected to graduate from college, build my flight time for a year or two then get hired as a flight engioneer at a legacy airline and start my life. Never did I or any of my peers expect to be still filling out applications 20 years later.

Skyhigh

USMCFLYR

[QUOTE]I realize that. My own commitment was only 4.5 years after winging. I could have gotten out of the military before I was 30 years old. I just doubt that the airlines ONLY hired military pilots who had gotten out after their initial commitment. I'm sure there were plenty of retired military pilots getting airline jobs "back in the day" as you say.

USMCFLYR