Kalitta Pilots CBA update
06-25-2022, 08:44 AM
#541
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jul 2017
Posts: 1,409
Hi All,
I work at another ACMI, and a lot of this discussion sounds very familiar. When it comes to training comparisons between major airlines and ACMI carriers, we may be trying to compare apples to oranges.
Instead, if you look at numbers, say NTSB reportable events over the last ten years divided by departures (data can be pulled from the NTSB and the Bureau of Transportation Statistics), you can see that whatever Kalitta has been doing lately is working. The training may be miserable, but they went from having one of the highest accident/incident rates per departure to an extremely low one. So something right is happening at Kalitta's training department, even through it may not be optimal. (Delta is near national averages in incidents per departure and flight hour but is somewhat worse than American or United. The differences here are small enough that I don't think we can infer much from them.)
Am I saying you should tolerate or accept bad practices in a training department at Kalitta? No. Are there jack-stands that see themselves as gate-keepers rather than instructors? Probably. I'm just saying Kalitta has gotten itself moving in the right direction. Comparing an experience at a place that's sorting itself out to an organization with several decades more investment in best practices and a matured culture-training-checking-hiring dynamic might not be fair or productive.
I work at another ACMI, and a lot of this discussion sounds very familiar. When it comes to training comparisons between major airlines and ACMI carriers, we may be trying to compare apples to oranges.
Instead, if you look at numbers, say NTSB reportable events over the last ten years divided by departures (data can be pulled from the NTSB and the Bureau of Transportation Statistics), you can see that whatever Kalitta has been doing lately is working. The training may be miserable, but they went from having one of the highest accident/incident rates per departure to an extremely low one. So something right is happening at Kalitta's training department, even through it may not be optimal. (Delta is near national averages in incidents per departure and flight hour but is somewhat worse than American or United. The differences here are small enough that I don't think we can infer much from them.)
Am I saying you should tolerate or accept bad practices in a training department at Kalitta? No. Are there jack-stands that see themselves as gate-keepers rather than instructors? Probably. I'm just saying Kalitta has gotten itself moving in the right direction. Comparing an experience at a place that's sorting itself out to an organization with several decades more investment in best practices and a matured culture-training-checking-hiring dynamic might not be fair or productive.
06-25-2022, 07:55 PM
#544
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jun 2007
Posts: 103
I hope our new MEC has got something great in the works. I hope they are ready to go to bat for a contract that makes Kalitta Air a destination. If we are 1/3 the size of Atlas and moving only 5% less than Atlas, we need to see how much we are appreciated by having a damn good contract. Show us the work rules, day rigs, double digit retirement, QOL at work, and show us the MONEY!
I hope the pilot group is willing to show true solidarity and let the MEC know what we expect from the company. And what we are willing to do for what is fair compensation/benefits for the job we do.
I hope the pilot group is willing to show true solidarity and let the MEC know what we expect from the company. And what we are willing to do for what is fair compensation/benefits for the job we do.
06-25-2022, 08:59 PM
#545
Line Holder
Joined APC: May 2016
Posts: 66
[QUOTE=inside0ut;3448291]That will never happen. The MEC isn't strong willed enough to face management and fight for what is deserved. Management is also laughing all the way to the bank since they we just signed a new contract that is terrible and wasted the leverage that we had. When the next round comes up it'll be in a slowdown in cargo and mgmt wont hesitate to get us to sell for cheap.[/
06-25-2022, 10:02 PM
#547
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Nov 2016
Position: Old and Unemployed
Posts: 107
Keep in mind things will eventually slow down in the freight business. When they do K4 will have long layovers. If you have some money in your pocket, long layovers are fantastic.
Many years ago I was a pretty new FO who was working with a Captain who believed in experiencing life. After a two day layover in Halle Germany one summer when things were slow, we went to a beach party on the River on a Friday. Got up the next morning had our very good free breakfast at the Dormero Hotel. Out to the Jet and over to JFK getting a 2 hour nap on the way. We arrive late afternoon on Saturday. Beautiful weather and cleared for the Carnassi VOR visual to the left. Hand flown out of 10,000. Had a super nice landing and as we roll out the Captain says, “this place isn’t very busy how about you taxi us to the gate”. As a new FO it was quite a rush. Customs clears us at the plane and we are on the way to the hotel. Captain tells us to meet downstairs in 30 minutes. Has the van take us to the Long Island Rail. We are in Times Square in a short while having dinner. I looked over at my crew mates as we sat outside haveing dinner and said “hard to believe we get paid to do this”. Lesson I took from that weekend was that I always strived to be That Captain when it was my turn.
I write this because there are a lot of K4 pilots who have never experienced the slow times. They are wonderful when you get the right destinations. 3 days in Paris, Leipzig, Santiago, Hong Kong (although I think that is gone). European rail service is cheap, reliable and frequent. Of course there are the times you get stuck at McGuire for 5 days, yuk. When times are slow Captains tend to mentor rather than rush and a lot of learning takes place as everyone is actually rested when they fly.
Enjoy the money now, take care of your health and be ready financially for when it gets slow. If you can take the schedule ACMI flying is great.
Many years ago I was a pretty new FO who was working with a Captain who believed in experiencing life. After a two day layover in Halle Germany one summer when things were slow, we went to a beach party on the River on a Friday. Got up the next morning had our very good free breakfast at the Dormero Hotel. Out to the Jet and over to JFK getting a 2 hour nap on the way. We arrive late afternoon on Saturday. Beautiful weather and cleared for the Carnassi VOR visual to the left. Hand flown out of 10,000. Had a super nice landing and as we roll out the Captain says, “this place isn’t very busy how about you taxi us to the gate”. As a new FO it was quite a rush. Customs clears us at the plane and we are on the way to the hotel. Captain tells us to meet downstairs in 30 minutes. Has the van take us to the Long Island Rail. We are in Times Square in a short while having dinner. I looked over at my crew mates as we sat outside haveing dinner and said “hard to believe we get paid to do this”. Lesson I took from that weekend was that I always strived to be That Captain when it was my turn.
I write this because there are a lot of K4 pilots who have never experienced the slow times. They are wonderful when you get the right destinations. 3 days in Paris, Leipzig, Santiago, Hong Kong (although I think that is gone). European rail service is cheap, reliable and frequent. Of course there are the times you get stuck at McGuire for 5 days, yuk. When times are slow Captains tend to mentor rather than rush and a lot of learning takes place as everyone is actually rested when they fly.
Enjoy the money now, take care of your health and be ready financially for when it gets slow. If you can take the schedule ACMI flying is great.
06-25-2022, 10:08 PM
#548
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Mar 2013
Posts: 393
You’re also a noob in the airline world and you don’t seem to understand that the way it’s done at Atlas is rare. Most airlines don’t allow the FO to taxi. Most airlines don’t have tillers for the FO. The fact that Atlas 747’s do have FO tillers and they allow you to taxi is a bit of a rarity. It’s also been a topic of discussion in the training department for many years longer than you’ve been around.
Atlas has seriously considered not allowing FO’s to taxi to “align the fleets” with the fleets that don’t have FO tillers. IMO, that’s not a good decision. Expecting somebody to go from the right to left seat…never having taxied a 747…is ridiculous. The tiller is there, so it should be allowed. If there is no FO tiller, then it’s not even a consideration obviously.
Allowing an FO to taxi helps them learn how to taxi such an airplane prior to upgrade…and, more importantly, gives them some responsibility under supervision. That’s what being a Captain is all about….supervising and mentoring the next generation of Captains.
Atlas has seriously considered not allowing FO’s to taxi to “align the fleets” with the fleets that don’t have FO tillers. IMO, that’s not a good decision. Expecting somebody to go from the right to left seat…never having taxied a 747…is ridiculous. The tiller is there, so it should be allowed. If there is no FO tiller, then it’s not even a consideration obviously.
Allowing an FO to taxi helps them learn how to taxi such an airplane prior to upgrade…and, more importantly, gives them some responsibility under supervision. That’s what being a Captain is all about….supervising and mentoring the next generation of Captains.
06-25-2022, 10:27 PM
#549
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jun 2017
Position: 777 Left window seat
Posts: 685
You’re also a noob in the airline world and you don’t seem to understand that the way it’s done at Atlas is rare. Most airlines don’t allow the FO to taxi. Most airlines don’t have tillers for the FO. The fact that Atlas 747’s do have FO tillers and they allow you to taxi is a bit of a rarity. It’s also been a topic of discussion in the training department for many years longer than you’ve been around.
Atlas has seriously considered not allowing FO’s to taxi to “align the fleets” with the fleets that don’t have FO tillers. IMO, that’s not a good decision. Expecting somebody to go from the right to left seat…never having taxied a 747…is ridiculous. The tiller is there, so it should be allowed. If there is no FO tiller, then it’s not even a consideration obviously.
Allowing an FO to taxi helps them learn how to taxi such an airplane prior to upgrade…and, more importantly, gives them some responsibility under supervision. That’s what being a Captain is all about….supervising and mentoring the next generation of Captains.
Atlas has seriously considered not allowing FO’s to taxi to “align the fleets” with the fleets that don’t have FO tillers. IMO, that’s not a good decision. Expecting somebody to go from the right to left seat…never having taxied a 747…is ridiculous. The tiller is there, so it should be allowed. If there is no FO tiller, then it’s not even a consideration obviously.
Allowing an FO to taxi helps them learn how to taxi such an airplane prior to upgrade…and, more importantly, gives them some responsibility under supervision. That’s what being a Captain is all about….supervising and mentoring the next generation of Captains.
06-26-2022, 08:56 PM
#550
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Mar 2013
Posts: 393
Just because you did it doesn’t mean everybody can without any issue. Remember…in the airline world we train to the lowest common denominator for a reason.
Also, keep in mind that a huge percentage of the pilots we have coming in the doors now have never taxied any aircraft since they were in small singles/twins.
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