Frank717

Good to see you around too buddy.

As for my name “frank” that’s in reference to my “speaking frankly” but the 717 is correct. Also, I was referring to the 2014/2015 stuff, but I was along for the whole ride (just outside of the 824). I was one of those that reviewed the PBS systems for that vote.

So, man, I respect you and understand where you’re coming from... but, I think I see things different; since I’ve shaken Connie’s hand (I kinda know him). I see a “no” here, especially a close one, being bounced back, a simple 1-2% DC tacked on, then back out as a TA. Why do I think that? Because Connie knows what we want. The Union and everyone knows what we want. I feel things went smooth enough because of how well things are going.

I am frustrated that so many people mix business with personal feeling. A “no” vote isn’t the end-all be-all that people make it out to be. It means that, what was presented doesn’t meet what the majority feels they deserve. Even the “pot” could remain the same and different numbers moved. I would rather lower guarantee and increase DC (but that’s my personal view).

I do think you’re underestimating that 3.5 years. That’s just the opener. It’s a long process beyond that to another TA, usually 1-2 years. And that being said, I would even offer to lower the contract term a year too.

Again, I just don’t take this who thing personally like others. (I have no idea who ‘newb2’ is, but just ignore him). He should read and honor your expertise in this area. I find it sad he’s a “no” vote, but hasn’t presented us with what would make him vote “yes”.

As for me, it’s a good contract, we have a good MEC, company and job. I’m happy here, and if it passes, I’ll still be happy here. I just believe that to have given so much of my life to this job, and aviation, I should be rewarded with a stronger retirement. I know the current field; LCCs offer pilots better plans, and I just believe we have earned it too.

newb2

Rule number one, never comment after consuming a few drinks. I would like to apologize to everyone I offended for the obnoxious post.

Lockheed

Thank you
I've broken that rule many times myself

Cujo665

I agree with most of that; except that once the shortage is here again, you won't be in contract talks for 1-2 years. They'll want the new contract more than you in order to keep attracting both new hires and slowing attrition by retaining existing pilots. I'd be willing to bet that in 3.5 years it goes very similar to this one, that they open 6 months early and in fairly short order you have more gains on top of these. Don't take it now, and (with as well as they are currently hiring) they'd be foolish to offer more, and would most likely ride out protracted section six negotiations for the 4 years. Then you'd be negotiating for what you'd already got, instead of using it for the starting point.

I'm glad you were one of the PBS testers; that whole mess sucked, but we got stuck with it by the MEC prior to us. The thing that saved us was being able to postpone it long enough that there was no way the company would actually pull the trigger on it costing the pilots $5M-$7M in lost soft money. With all the delays, by the time it came to implement it, they were already having trouble hiring due to their forced 2014 concessions. Kinda amazing how that delay tactic worked out in our favor... almost like it was planned. <grin-wink>

Right now in the ACMI world you guys at K4 are leading the pack. The rest have a ways to go to catch up. The problem is a similar one to the regional industry. Unlike Purple & Brown flying their own work, K4 and the rest are all contract jobs, just like the regionals are Capacity Purchase Agreements. The result being the most economical company gets the contracts.

The pilot shortage will hit the regional industry first again (like last time) at which point they'll start making contract gains again and shrinking. The ACMI's will get hit next, and last the legacy's will make changes. We saw 2 of the three legacies drop the previously absolutely mandatory BS degree requirement to simple preference already. Once the shortage gets worse in the ACMI segment, the standard will shift. Instead of the cheapest contract being the main currency, the ability to maintain completion factors will become the new currency. In other words, the ability to maintain pilot staffing levels becomes the Gold Standard. We aren't there yet. (we actually saw this begin to play out with Atlas shrinking and losing contracts rather than give a decent contract, what saved them was Covid and a flood of regional and furloughed pilots)

I'll say this, with thousands of pilots still on the streets, and an endless supply of regional guys trying to get out and up, they have no shortage of pilots applying at K4. The fact that you are getting ANY improvements at all in this environment is absolutely amazing work by your MEC & NC.

Not taking the deal under those conditions will not work in labors favor. It can often result in them doing more analysis and deciding they gave too much, and actually pull their offer back a little. We have both seen that happen as I recall, and then it took two years to get a deal just slightly better than what was first offered to the second MEC. The time value of money over the two years probably wasn't worth losing 1,400 pilots to prove our determination with downgrades and much delayed upgrades. The best contractual pay raise is going from FO to CA.

There is light at the end of the tunnel. Keeping the growth going gets you to the left seat faster, and that will help your 401k more than anything else.

Here's an update from IATA that they still expect the 2019 flying levels to return by 2023-2024..... right about the time you'd be getting ready to use this CBA as your new starting point. This really is an almost no brainer. Take the gains, and use them as the starting point in 3.5 years when the glut of pilots is gone, and the shortage is kicking in hard again.

https://aviationweek.com/air-transpo...2993bd788cb3a6

Either way, you guys are leading the way. Keep up the great work.

midwest1992

Apology accepted.

MoarAlpha

Tomorrow is the big day!

goinaround

Not really.....

TransWorld

Friday. Which week, which year?

fastback

For better or for worse, it passed. 90%+ participation. Didn’t catch the yes/no breakdown.

goinaround

54% in favor.