shroomwell

Excellent points all.

ocskyguy

Those of you who know me personally know that I really don't have much of a dog in this hunt, since the dreaded "65" is chasing me close. But, I just want to throw out a couple points to consider...

The pilots represent about 25% of the total workforce. And, the rest of them are acutely aware of gains that are made by the pilots and expect similar advances in their own rewards. So, basically Connie has to quadruple the percentage exposure for anything that is signed into a contract. The rest of the company will eventually get the same deal or they will vote with their feet. We are not the only ones who are costly to replace.

Tough to say, but real, we don't hold a very big stick in this negotiation. We cannot vote with our feet except to a less attractive job. And, I am pretty sure that the group as a whole is not dissatisfied enough to take a job action to secure a better deal.

As, I believe Cujo pointed out, the cost of delayed negotiations is rarely made up by the next contract. We here who sat for many years waiting for the current TA have often discussed whether we would have been better off to take the company's "last and final" and regrouped to fight again.

My seniority affords a high pay rate, so my comparison is a little skewed. But, the 6% DC with a 290K cap would have put about an additional $62500 in my 401 over the last 5 years. Figuring in the effects of shrewd investing, that number would be double. Not wonderful, but certainly not a sharp stick in the eye.

If you truly have a career planned here, consider that a little bit now may very well be worth taking while you wait for the inevitable recovery from COVID and the real pilot shortage that will accompany it. Then, there will be meaningful gains for all.

Just sayin'

Cujo665

I assume you are meaning the MEC No vote in 2012, and the two No votes in 2013 (one MEC & one by the pilots) while I was not on the MEC for the 2012 MEC no vote, I did support that no vote too. I was there for the rest of the mess. The 2014 ratified CBA was still concessionary, but we had gone from 3200 pilots to 1800 and they were 100% going to continue transferring our planes to PDT & PSA and wipe us out. We fought as long as we could. That said, I warned them that both base closures would be short lived because the replacement carriers wouldn't be able to staff it, and I was correct. NY reopened almost exactly 1 year later. I warned them that forcing concessions was a mistake and they’d be back within the year to try to fix things to attract pilots.... it took six months before they began offering hotels to commuters. The enrichment of the pot continued to attract pilots. Do you want your enrichment based off your current book, or off this slightly improved one?

The biggest difference now opposed to then is the duration of the CBA. The second biggest difference between then and what you face now are that was a concessionary contract, not even minimal gains like you’re getting.
Back then they wanted a 10 year CBA extension with the limited rewrites on cherry picked sections. It would have carried them through the worst of the shortage with not only sub standard wages locked in, but actual concessions locked in from 2014 until 2024.

a short term CBA with gains (even if minimal) would have been an absolute Yes vote, and put us in better position to be in section six around 2017, right when the pilot shortage really started changing things.

you guys have that opportunity right now. To grab some gains, and be in a better starting position in 3.5 years when this shortage really hits hard again. If it hits earlier and they can’t hire, they’ll do exactly as Beagle and come sweeten the pot.

hope I explained that in such a way that those who weren’t part of it can at least relate.

glad to see you doing well.

Globemaster2827

I was using the DC comparison because Pensions are dinosaurs that are going away. Yes UPS and FedEx do have them but there's a war over them every negotiating session and if either were to declare bankruptcy they'd be gone immediately. I just don't see anyone successfully negotiating a Pension in 2021. 401ks are clearly the wave of the future and as a bonus they can't be raided.

Cujo665

get the DC now while you can. Let the shortage get you the full 15% in 3.5 years..... or you can wait at current book to get the DC new in 4 or more years of protracted section six...

newb2

If it wasn’t hard enough to listen to a bunch of limp pilots with no back bone from my company tell my why I need to vote yes, we have a guy that doesn’t work here tell us to vote yes. Does anyone else think this is a bunch of B.S, or am I the only one that really could care less what this idiot thinks

Lockheed

you know what cheif ....you take you're personal attacks on me and the rest if our leadership and stuff it right up your tailpipe

midwest1992

What a great way to thank the negotiating committee, who by the way are volunteers sacrificing their time bringing what they feel is the best TA in this environment to our pilot group. We should all show them some respect for all the time and effort . If it wasn’t for this negotiation committee we would not be working under our current contract. How quickly you forget. (Industry leading amongst the ACMI carriers at the time).
If you disagree so much with your so called “limp pilots “ comment, why then do I not see you being part of the solution?
Instead you will resort to name calling and criticism.

You sir are a Tool as well as a Idiot. Vote with your feet. Bye


Sincerely

A line pilot who respects the efforts put forth by our Negotiation Committee and stands behind them 100 percent.

Propstrike28

The only limp BS I see here is your logic. You don’t like this TA? You’re really going to like 5-6 years of negotiation under the current contract! Just imagine all the leverage you’ll have 5 years from now when the pandemic (now there’s some limp BS) is over, and all the major airlines are at full capacity carrying all that belly freight again. Wait, I know your plan, we’ll just go on strike. We can do that, right?

Cujo665

So labor relations and contract law are completely different at your property.... The RLA, NMB, existing industry past practice, or industry precedents haver zero impact on how things go at K4 compared to anyplace else...... That's your argument?

Newsflash; same laws, same regulations, same regulators, same arbitrators, same rules, even the same ALPA lawyers and E&FA analysis.
Different players in a different ballpark, but playing the same game by the same rules.
Don't learn from others; go make the same and all new mistakes all over again.