Kalitta Pilots CBA update
02-22-2021, 05:50 PM
#312
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jun 2006
Position: Left, right & center
Posts: 861
Do not use that word, "fair". You will lose every time. It's a union ploy to appeal to emotion, which may have some effect on airlines that haul people, because those people might be customers who might complain and take their business elsewhere. But in the cargo business, as we like to say, the boxes don't complain. Neither do they care how you feel about what you're getting paid. Likewise the companies that want to ship them as cheaply as possible.
Nobody pays you anything because it's "fair". They pay you because you can justify it and convince them to agree. Nobody on the management side of labor negotiations cares about "fair", and trying to appeal to that is a losing strategy.
Nobody pays you anything because it's "fair". They pay you because you can justify it and convince them to agree. Nobody on the management side of labor negotiations cares about "fair", and trying to appeal to that is a losing strategy.
02-22-2021, 07:02 PM
#313
Squawking 2000
Joined APC: Jul 2015
Position: Skeptical
Posts: 737
Do not use that word, "fair". You will lose every time. It's a union ploy to appeal to emotion, which may have some effect on airlines that haul people, because those people might be customers who might complain and take their business elsewhere. But in the cargo business, as we like to say, the boxes don't complain. Neither do they care how you feel about what you're getting paid. Likewise the companies that want to ship them as cheaply as possible.
Nobody pays you anything because it's "fair". They pay you because you can justify it and convince them to agree. Nobody on the management side of labor negotiations cares about "fair", and trying to appeal to that is a losing strategy.
Nobody pays you anything because it's "fair". They pay you because you can justify it and convince them to agree. Nobody on the management side of labor negotiations cares about "fair", and trying to appeal to that is a losing strategy.
Your dollar-value and worth to the company is exactly what you negotiate: nothing more, nothing less.
02-22-2021, 08:25 PM
#314
Line Holder
Joined APC: Dec 2020
Posts: 72
Do not use that word, "fair". You will lose every time. It's a union ploy to appeal to emotion, which may have some effect on airlines that haul people, because those people might be customers who might complain and take their business elsewhere. But in the cargo business, as we like to say, the boxes don't complain. Neither do they care how you feel about what you're getting paid. Likewise the companies that want to ship them as cheaply as possible.
Nobody pays you anything because it's "fair". They pay you because you can justify it and convince them to agree. Nobody on the management side of labor negotiations cares about "fair", and trying to appeal to that is a losing strategy.
Nobody pays you anything because it's "fair". They pay you because you can justify it and convince them to agree. Nobody on the management side of labor negotiations cares about "fair", and trying to appeal to that is a losing strategy.
Perhaps instead of “fair” I should have stated “fair market value”. It’s true, “fair” is useless in negotiations, but I’m addressing my comments to other pilots here. I’m trying to push to point that the proffered contract is less than what we asked, fairly. (we could have asked for 500,000 first year pay, but that’s not fair market value) . I saw a road show and get some points, but they even said “the majority of the survey requested retirement compensation” but the company wasn’t willing to provide that.
I understand that a ‘No’ vote puts us back to square one. But it also buys time for COVID and aviation recovery. It’s in everyone’s interests to have a contract. Maybe if we vote “no” by 51% they tack on 2% annual increase and send it back... I dunno what’s going to happen. In the mean time, if JB, F9, Spirit, even majors have full recall and start to hire, then we have more power and say than we do now.
Finally, if we get the double digits DC, then other ACMI carries will demand it too, Atlas, Omni, and ATI have contracts soon (I think). The cost will be passed on to the customers.... and even though we’re not FedEx or UPS, they have customers who pay the price for their contract. And if 21 Air doesn’t get the contract and we do, guess where our new pilots will come from... and their training cost will skyrocket, raising operating cost.
02-22-2021, 09:13 PM
#315
Line Holder
Joined APC: Jul 2011
Posts: 63
That is not a strategy, that is gambling. No one knows when this recovery will happen and what form it will take. It could take a year, it could take five years. The industry could go gangbusters or return to 2019 levels and grow no further. Maybe pax carriers start hiring while concurrently freight prices drop and we start parking airplanes. With a yes vote we control our destiny for the next four years. If we vote no all bets are off.
Big unlikely 'if' there. It is far more likely we'll get a 15% DC if Atlas has say a 10% DC. They're more likely to get a 10% DC if we have a 7% DC. That last 'if' is an easy one. Vote yes and it 'will' be.
Finally, if we get the double digits DC, then other ACMI carries will demand it too,
02-23-2021, 03:16 AM
#316
Line Holder
Joined APC: Dec 2015
Posts: 53
That is not a strategy, that is gambling. No one knows when this recovery will happen and what form it will take. It could take a year, it could take five years. The industry could go gangbusters or return to 2019 levels and grow no further. Maybe pax carriers start hiring while concurrently freight prices drop and we start parking airplanes. With a yes vote we control our destiny for the next four years. If we vote no all bets are off.
Big unlikely 'if' there. It is far more likely we'll get a 15% DC if Atlas has say a 10% DC. They're more likely to get a 10% DC if we have a 7% DC. That last 'if' is an easy one. Vote yes and it 'will' be.
Big unlikely 'if' there. It is far more likely we'll get a 15% DC if Atlas has say a 10% DC. They're more likely to get a 10% DC if we have a 7% DC. That last 'if' is an easy one. Vote yes and it 'will' be.
How about we take a look at what this great contract means for a 3-year FO. The pay from the old contract to the new contract at min guarantee of 64 hours will be an increase of 241.68 a month. Now if you subtract out the increase in insurance the pay is only 191.68 per month and that’s before tax.
Ghost Pilot you are either management, a management stooge, or one of our MEC members trying to sell a pig in a poke. Either way, you have no respect for yourself, your profession or anyone else.
Just in case you couldn’t tell I’m a no vote.
02-23-2021, 03:50 AM
#317
Line Holder
Joined APC: Feb 2011
Posts: 37
ACMI pilots do not get paid like legacy pilots because they do not generate the kind of revenue (to the extent that pilots can be credited with generating revenue) that legacy pilots generate. Grabbing some numbers that are publicly available, let's compare Atlas in 2020 (because it was better than 2019) and Delta in 2019 (because their compensation was negotiated in a time when business was not depressed by The Covid).
Atlas: $3.21 billion in revenue, 1944 pilots according to APC = $1.65 million per pilot
Delta: $47 billion in revenue, 12,946 pilots = $3.63 million per pilot
You wanna get paid like a legacy pilot? You're gonna have to generate revenue like a legacy pilot. Good luck with that.
Atlas: $3.21 billion in revenue, 1944 pilots according to APC = $1.65 million per pilot
Delta: $47 billion in revenue, 12,946 pilots = $3.63 million per pilot
You wanna get paid like a legacy pilot? You're gonna have to generate revenue like a legacy pilot. Good luck with that.
02-23-2021, 05:19 AM
#318
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Apr 2007
Posts: 1,874
Seriously. Thank you guys for showing up. We aren’t demanding to be paid like Legacy or even LCC. We’re asking a fair and honest retirement plan (13-15% DC). For the cost of us NOT moving around and jumping ship, it’s a fair investment for K4.
We’re only asking what’s fair. I believe we work harder, longer and a lot more day/nights than any legacy guy. And, it would be nice to be paid that much too, but K4 doesn’t make that much based up volume, we know. But, we make enough to provide each pilot with enough help plan a retirement.
Honestly, Connie should be impressed we’re asking for this, that means we want to devote our career and life to his airline and promote our own success.
We’re only asking what’s fair. I believe we work harder, longer and a lot more day/nights than any legacy guy. And, it would be nice to be paid that much too, but K4 doesn’t make that much based up volume, we know. But, we make enough to provide each pilot with enough help plan a retirement.
Honestly, Connie should be impressed we’re asking for this, that means we want to devote our career and life to his airline and promote our own success.
Most airlines don't. That is when you cost the most and are the least productive with max vacations and medical issues, and a new hire that upgrades as soon as possible will do it for alot less. With all the recent expansion and hiring doubling or more the seniority list.....management sees that the pilots on the bottom of the list making half pay show up to fly and get the job done alot cheaper. As fair as training costs..our company has said for years it cost nothing. Own the sims, use company Instructors that are on salary. They hope the top of the senority list leaves for greener pastures so they can hire newbies. Fair is what Connie is willing to pay.
02-23-2021, 06:20 AM
#319
Line Holder
Joined APC: Dec 2020
Posts: 72
What makes you think Connie wants you to devote your career and life to his airline?
Most airlines don't. That is when you cost the most and are the least productive with max vacations and medical issues, and a new hire that upgrades as soon as possible will do it for alot less. With all the recent expansion and hiring doubling or more the seniority list.....management sees that the pilots on the bottom of the list making half pay show up to fly and get the job done alot cheaper. As fair as training costs..our company has said for years it cost nothing. Own the sims, use company Instructors that are on salary. They hope the top of the senority list leaves for greener pastures so they can hire newbies. Fair is what Connie is willing to pay.
Most airlines don't. That is when you cost the most and are the least productive with max vacations and medical issues, and a new hire that upgrades as soon as possible will do it for alot less. With all the recent expansion and hiring doubling or more the seniority list.....management sees that the pilots on the bottom of the list making half pay show up to fly and get the job done alot cheaper. As fair as training costs..our company has said for years it cost nothing. Own the sims, use company Instructors that are on salary. They hope the top of the senority list leaves for greener pastures so they can hire newbies. Fair is what Connie is willing to pay.
As for your comments;
It’s true new hires cost less than senior on basic salary. Now factor in; background, hiring, training time, failures, those out there who take the type and run, and those who decide that being away from home for more than 4 days at a time isn’t for them.
Given your reasoning we would only hire people 60 and older (yes, it’s illegal). This isn’t a regional and they don’t treat us like one. We don’t offer “sign on bonuses” or any thing like that to point to your theory. And senior pilots leaving for “greener” pastures, doesn’t happen. ABX is famous for being a senior group, and no one leaves.
Finally, “fair” is what WE are willing to accept, not what Connie offers. I know in my mind what it will take to keep me here. If I can’t get the DC I want, I’ll run the numbers and when hiring opens again, I will move somewhere if it’s profitable for me. I’m not the only one, and it’s not against the contract or K4, but like everyone else, I have a family and my own interest to support.
02-23-2021, 07:31 AM
#320
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Apr 2007
Posts: 1,874
Alright nitefr8tdog, you seem to be involved on every post in every cargo pilot group, especially ABX. So, you took your contract there, just be happy with it, we know where you stand.
As for your comments;
It’s true new hires cost less than senior on basic salary. Now factor in; background, hiring, training time, failures, those out there who take the type and run, and those who decide that being away from home for more than 4 days at a time isn’t for them.
Given your reasoning we would only hire people 60 and older (yes, it’s illegal). This isn’t a regional and they don’t treat us like one. We don’t offer “sign on bonuses” or any thing like that to point to your theory. And senior pilots leaving for “greener” pastures, doesn’t happen. ABX is famous for being a senior group, and no one leaves.
Finally, “fair” is what WE are willing to accept, not what Connie offers. I know in my mind what it will take to keep me here. If I can’t get the DC I want, I’ll run the numbers and when hiring opens again, I will move somewhere if it’s profitable for me. I’m not the only one, and it’s not against the contract or K4, but like everyone else, I have a family and my own interest to support.
As for your comments;
It’s true new hires cost less than senior on basic salary. Now factor in; background, hiring, training time, failures, those out there who take the type and run, and those who decide that being away from home for more than 4 days at a time isn’t for them.
Given your reasoning we would only hire people 60 and older (yes, it’s illegal). This isn’t a regional and they don’t treat us like one. We don’t offer “sign on bonuses” or any thing like that to point to your theory. And senior pilots leaving for “greener” pastures, doesn’t happen. ABX is famous for being a senior group, and no one leaves.
Finally, “fair” is what WE are willing to accept, not what Connie offers. I know in my mind what it will take to keep me here. If I can’t get the DC I want, I’ll run the numbers and when hiring opens again, I will move somewhere if it’s profitable for me. I’m not the only one, and it’s not against the contract or K4, but like everyone else, I have a family and my own interest to support.
As far as what YOU are willing to accept...before that is decided, its GOING to be a number the guy who signs the checks is willing to pay. If you think otherwise YOU are delusional.
I guess I got a little close to the bone huh?
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