Kalitta Pilots CBA update
02-17-2021, 05:00 PM
#261
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Oct 2012
Position: B777 CA
Posts: 586
Thank you for your response Captain. My point is that you cannot go about thinking that the pilot group negotiates in a vacuum. I am guessing that you may not know that from your response.
What is most troubling about your comment, is that you were on the negotiating committee. Had you known these simple things, perhaps things would have worked out better when you were on the committee. Instead the new committee was saddled with an Instructor section that your committee negotiated. When I saw it it was hard for me to believe that it had been negotiated by a union taking union dues from the instructors? Heartbreaking, that union members would do that to other union members. Why? You didn’t even secure better benefits in exchange.
To recap, short sighted and situationally unaware of the environment. Negotiating in direct conflict to a part of the pilot group causing considerable disruption in their pay. Perhaps to the rest of the pilot groups pay also. (When they all go back to the line and you have to deal with the growing pains of a training department that has all new inexperienced Instructors.
Makes me very happy to be retired and watching this tragedy from the cheap seats.
What is most troubling about your comment, is that you were on the negotiating committee. Had you known these simple things, perhaps things would have worked out better when you were on the committee. Instead the new committee was saddled with an Instructor section that your committee negotiated. When I saw it it was hard for me to believe that it had been negotiated by a union taking union dues from the instructors? Heartbreaking, that union members would do that to other union members. Why? You didn’t even secure better benefits in exchange.
To recap, short sighted and situationally unaware of the environment. Negotiating in direct conflict to a part of the pilot group causing considerable disruption in their pay. Perhaps to the rest of the pilot groups pay also. (When they all go back to the line and you have to deal with the growing pains of a training department that has all new inexperienced Instructors.
Makes me very happy to be retired and watching this tragedy from the cheap seats.
02-17-2021, 05:50 PM
#262
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Oct 2008
Posts: 302
Thank you for your response Captain. My point is that you cannot go about thinking that the pilot group negotiates in a vacuum. I am guessing that you may not know that from your response.
What is most troubling about your comment, is that you were on the negotiating committee. Had you known these simple things, perhaps things would have worked out better when you were on the committee. Instead the new committee was saddled with an Instructor section that your committee negotiated. When I saw it it was hard for me to believe that it had been negotiated by a union taking union dues from the instructors? Heartbreaking, that union members would do that to other union members. Why? You didn’t even secure better benefits in exchange.
To recap, short sighted and situationally unaware of the environment. Negotiating in direct conflict to a part of the pilot group causing considerable disruption in their pay. Perhaps to the rest of the pilot groups pay also. (When they all go back to the line and you have to deal with the growing pains of a training department that has all new inexperienced Instructors.
Makes me very happy to be retired and watching this tragedy from the cheap seats.
What is most troubling about your comment, is that you were on the negotiating committee. Had you known these simple things, perhaps things would have worked out better when you were on the committee. Instead the new committee was saddled with an Instructor section that your committee negotiated. When I saw it it was hard for me to believe that it had been negotiated by a union taking union dues from the instructors? Heartbreaking, that union members would do that to other union members. Why? You didn’t even secure better benefits in exchange.
To recap, short sighted and situationally unaware of the environment. Negotiating in direct conflict to a part of the pilot group causing considerable disruption in their pay. Perhaps to the rest of the pilot groups pay also. (When they all go back to the line and you have to deal with the growing pains of a training department that has all new inexperienced Instructors.
Makes me very happy to be retired and watching this tragedy from the cheap seats.
02-17-2021, 06:07 PM
#263
Line Holder
Joined APC: Dec 2020
Posts: 72
Frank, I agree with everything you have written except the last sentence. FedEx gained their scales during expansion.
Connie is a businessman, and this is his legacy. He took a lot of grief from the increases in the last contract that were not passed onto other employees. If you cannot show him a ROI I think it is very much an uphill battle. Lastly, for the most part, the pilot group is made up of people who take great pride in completing the mission and are loyal to the company. Besides it being illegal, I think that most pilots at K4 would find a work slowdown or any other job action to be very distasteful. Not so much at FedEx.
Good luck, I wish you all nothing but success.
Connie is a businessman, and this is his legacy. He took a lot of grief from the increases in the last contract that were not passed onto other employees. If you cannot show him a ROI I think it is very much an uphill battle. Lastly, for the most part, the pilot group is made up of people who take great pride in completing the mission and are loyal to the company. Besides it being illegal, I think that most pilots at K4 would find a work slowdown or any other job action to be very distasteful. Not so much at FedEx.
Good luck, I wish you all nothing but success.
But I want to disagree a little with your thoughts towards FedEx. Let me change the argument;
My argument would be towards the long term. While many of our customers can go to another ACMI, they come back to us every time. We have provided a safe, reliable service again and again. But, Atlas and ATSG group could do the same, maybe for cheaper rates too... right?
Well, not really.
ATSG is in with Amazon and keeps losing (or canceling) SHL contracts to supple for them. Atlas has their crews and aircraft tied up in full time with Amazon, DHL and military too. That means there isn’t a lot to choose from out there, except 21 Air and Mesa.
In the long run, if pilots start leaving those tiny guys for better contacts with us or Atlas, then DHL will have to pay the same rates to compete. They can’t do that now due to Covid, but that will change. Frontier, Spirit and others will easily hire a 21 Air pilot with heavy time and experience, over the regional pilot with CRJ time.
Yes, this week, Mesa can hire a pilot to fly a 737 for $43 an hour. The same won’t be true next year, those guys will have moved up and out. The operating expense to training a new pilot and captain will take its toll on Mesa.
(Sorry, this is a beer and dinner conversation, and if you’re a K4 guy, it’s on me)
I just want our junior to see there is more out there. Yes, things aren’t perfect now. But many of our customers need us (and we need them). But if ABX mergers with ATI and Amazon keeps their hands on ATSG and Atlas, then everything else is up to us. And we can name our price.
I’m just asking guys to look at the long term. Like Delta pilots did in 2002. Invest in our, and K4s, future.
02-17-2021, 06:28 PM
#265
Squawking 2000
Joined APC: Jul 2015
Position: Skeptical
Posts: 737
Lastly, for the most part, the pilot group is made up of people who take great pride in completing the mission and are loyal to the company. Besides it being illegal, I think that most pilots at K4 would find a work slowdown or any other job action to be very distasteful.
If you find that distasteful, why even belong to a union? Just take what you are offered and say thank you.
02-17-2021, 07:04 PM
#266
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Oct 2012
Position: B777 CA
Posts: 586
You can take great pride in completing your mission while at the same time occasionally flexing your collective muscle to remind those who sign the checks how critically essential you are to the operation.
If you find that distasteful, why even belong to a union? Just take what you are offered and say thank you.
If you find that distasteful, why even belong to a union? Just take what you are offered and say thank you.
02-18-2021, 04:13 AM
#268
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jan 2015
Posts: 175
But you have the Atlas business model wrong. Less than 10% of our work is Amazon. DHL=Polar and Southern with a couple Atlas aircraft. DoD Makes a larger stake in Atlas than Amazon but I still think that’s less than 20%. So including DHL Atlas only has about 35% of our work tied up in those customers you list. The rest of the work force is busy day in day out doing Long Term Contracts like: Nippon, Qantas, Asiana a few more in there and other freight forwarding companies no one has ever heard of. As well as AdHoc and our own freight out of South America.
So you aren’t the only carrier out there in ACMI/AdHoc. I just wanted to clear up the way Atlas does business.
However it’s not the pilot group’s responsibility to cut our pay so we can undercut each other. That’s a self defeating negotiating tactic. Not saying that’s what you were suggesting Frank as of course the just the opposite.
02-18-2021, 05:11 AM
#269
On the 1st tee
Joined APC: Jan 2016
Posts: 89
You can take great pride in completing your mission while at the same time occasionally flexing your collective muscle to remind those who sign the checks how critically essential you are to the operation.
If you find that distasteful, why even belong to a union? Just take what you are offered and say thank you.
If you find that distasteful, why even belong to a union? Just take what you are offered and say thank you.
02-18-2021, 06:26 AM
#270
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Apr 2007
Posts: 1,872
Thanks, I think we’re on the same page. (If you’re on the line I look forward to flying with you).
But I want to disagree a little with your thoughts towards FedEx. Let me change the argument;
My argument would be towards the long term. While many of our customers can go to another ACMI, they come back to us every time. We have provided a safe, reliable service again and again. But, Atlas and ATSG group could do the same, maybe for cheaper rates too... right?
Well, not really.
ATSG is in with Amazon and keeps losing (or canceling) SHL contracts to supple for them. Atlas has their crews and aircraft tied up in full time with Amazon, DHL and military too. That means there isn’t a lot to choose from out there, except 21 Air and Mesa.
In the long run, if pilots start leaving those tiny guys for better contacts with us or Atlas, then DHL will have to pay the same rates to compete. They can’t do that now due to Covid, but that will change. Frontier, Spirit and others will easily hire a 21 Air pilot with heavy time and experience, over the regional pilot with CRJ time.
Yes, this week, Mesa can hire a pilot to fly a 737 for $43 an hour. The same won’t be true next year, those guys will have moved up and out. The operating expense to training a new pilot and captain will take its toll on Mesa.
(Sorry, this is a beer and dinner conversation, and if you’re a K4 guy, it’s on me)
I just want our junior to see there is more out there. Yes, things aren’t perfect now. But many of our customers need us (and we need them). But if ABX mergers with ATI and Amazon keeps their hands on ATSG and Atlas, then everything else is up to us. And we can name our price.
I’m just asking guys to look at the long term. Like Delta pilots did in 2002. Invest in our, and K4s, future.
But I want to disagree a little with your thoughts towards FedEx. Let me change the argument;
My argument would be towards the long term. While many of our customers can go to another ACMI, they come back to us every time. We have provided a safe, reliable service again and again. But, Atlas and ATSG group could do the same, maybe for cheaper rates too... right?
Well, not really.
ATSG is in with Amazon and keeps losing (or canceling) SHL contracts to supple for them. Atlas has their crews and aircraft tied up in full time with Amazon, DHL and military too. That means there isn’t a lot to choose from out there, except 21 Air and Mesa.
In the long run, if pilots start leaving those tiny guys for better contacts with us or Atlas, then DHL will have to pay the same rates to compete. They can’t do that now due to Covid, but that will change. Frontier, Spirit and others will easily hire a 21 Air pilot with heavy time and experience, over the regional pilot with CRJ time.
Yes, this week, Mesa can hire a pilot to fly a 737 for $43 an hour. The same won’t be true next year, those guys will have moved up and out. The operating expense to training a new pilot and captain will take its toll on Mesa.
(Sorry, this is a beer and dinner conversation, and if you’re a K4 guy, it’s on me)
I just want our junior to see there is more out there. Yes, things aren’t perfect now. But many of our customers need us (and we need them). But if ABX mergers with ATI and Amazon keeps their hands on ATSG and Atlas, then everything else is up to us. And we can name our price.
I’m just asking guys to look at the long term. Like Delta pilots did in 2002. Invest in our, and K4s, future.
ABX Air had a 99.9% on time in DEC and JAN tough to beat and have not lost any business.
Tiny? ATSG is the largest owner of converted 767 aircraft in the world...north of 140.
You don't really think that painting a race car yellow and putting DHL on it would eliminate all competition do you. Since Kalita has added 767s for DHL, I can think of 4 additional carriers flying DHL freight. 3 of them in the last 2 yrs. It's the very reason you suggested....they do not want any one carrier to control pricing.
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