I can't recommend JetBlue at this time
06-08-2017, 06:07 AM
#491
The REAL Bluedriver
Joined APC: Sep 2011
Position: Airbus Capt
Posts: 6,920
Stop comparing us to regionals and fractionals. We're a major US airline. There are no comparisons to be had with either one at this point though. I used to think this airline was only good for people that lived in Boston, but now, I don't even think it's good enough for that. This is pretty depressing , this airline is not going anywhere - there's no growth potential and everyone of my friends hired at the major airlines are captain already, the ones that aren't are making 160 grand as a first officer. This place is a dead-end career road that seems to be moving backwards.
06-08-2017, 07:27 AM
#492
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Oct 2015
Position: Gear slinger
Posts: 2,980
Stop comparing us to regionals and fractionals. We're a major US airline. There are no comparisons to be had with either one at this point though. I used to think this airline was only good for people that lived in Boston, but now, I don't even think it's good enough for that. This is pretty depressing , this airline is not going anywhere - there's no growth potential and everyone of my friends hired at the major airlines are captain already, the ones that aren't are making 160 grand as a first officer. This place is a dead-end career road that seems to be moving backwards.
Unfortunately JetBlue management sees its peers as Frontier, Spirit and Virgin America. It's pilots see their peers as SWA, United, AA and Delta. Management isn't going to willingly give a CBA on par with any of the groups you aspire to be like anytime soon without significant pressure. With the level of pressure they're receiving now (which really isn't all that much) you'll probably see an offer of 10-20% increase in pay in benefits when the first CBA comes around for approval (they were already trying to pacify you with an 8% raise and a reduction in profit sharing) in 18-24 months when they really start getting concerned with pilot manning.
Hopefully the pilot group votes the first contract down, then it'll be another 12-18 months until they get the second CBA produced which historically has something like a 90% pass rate regardless of what's in it.
JetBlue pilots are driven to be working under a top tier CBA, they need to apply to companies that offer them already instead of hoping and dreaming that one is going to fall into their lap because they have a union now. It's going to be a long time before they see one otherwise.
06-08-2017, 07:51 AM
#493
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Oct 2012
Position: 190 captain and “Pro-pilot”
Posts: 2,931
The only comparison was that if those folk working at those types of gigs can find the time off and $ to pursue further their apps to the (other) majors anyone form JetBlue can as well. If JetBlue pilots aren't actively trying to get on with a career airline, they've got no one to blame but themselves.
Unfortunately JetBlue management sees its peers as Frontier, Spirit and Virgin America. It's pilots see their peers as SWA, United, AA and Delta. Management isn't going to willingly give a CBA on par with any of the groups you aspire to be like anytime soon without significant pressure. With the level of pressure they're receiving now (which really isn't all that much) you'll probably see an offer of 10-20% increase in pay in benefits when the first CBA comes around for approval (they were already trying to pacify you with an 8% raise and a reduction in profit sharing) in 18-24 months when they really start getting concerned with pilot manning.
Hopefully the pilot group votes the first contract down, then it'll be another 12-18 months until they get the second CBA produced which historically has something like a 90% pass rate regardless of what's in it.
JetBlue pilots are driven to be working under a top tier CBA, they need to apply to companies that offer them already instead of hoping and dreaming that one is going to fall into their lap because they have a union now. It's going to be a long time before they see one otherwise.
Unfortunately JetBlue management sees its peers as Frontier, Spirit and Virgin America. It's pilots see their peers as SWA, United, AA and Delta. Management isn't going to willingly give a CBA on par with any of the groups you aspire to be like anytime soon without significant pressure. With the level of pressure they're receiving now (which really isn't all that much) you'll probably see an offer of 10-20% increase in pay in benefits when the first CBA comes around for approval (they were already trying to pacify you with an 8% raise and a reduction in profit sharing) in 18-24 months when they really start getting concerned with pilot manning.
Hopefully the pilot group votes the first contract down, then it'll be another 12-18 months until they get the second CBA produced which historically has something like a 90% pass rate regardless of what's in it.
JetBlue pilots are driven to be working under a top tier CBA, they need to apply to companies that offer them already instead of hoping and dreaming that one is going to fall into their lap because they have a union now. It's going to be a long time before they see one otherwise.
Not sure how you get that we are hoping or dreaming that a cba will fall into our lap. I think most guys don't see it that way at all and that's kind of a slight to the pilot group. The union could have done a quick and dirty cba to start with but decided to go piece by piece to do it right the first time. Every cba we get will be built off this one. We won't accept some crappy "this is the best we could do cba"
06-08-2017, 08:00 AM
#494
Not A Janitor
Joined APC: Aug 2008
Posts: 814
With the level of pressure they're receiving now (which really isn't all that much) you'll probably see an offer of 10-20% increase in pay in benefits when the first CBA comes around for approval (they were already trying to pacify you with an 8% raise and a reduction in profit sharing) in 18-24 months when they really start getting concerned with pilot manning.
...
JetBlue pilots are driven to be working under a top tier CBA, they need to apply to companies that offer them already instead of hoping and dreaming that one is going to fall into their lap because they have a union now. It's going to be a long time before they see one otherwise.
...
JetBlue pilots are driven to be working under a top tier CBA, they need to apply to companies that offer them already instead of hoping and dreaming that one is going to fall into their lap because they have a union now. It's going to be a long time before they see one otherwise.
If it's the latter, you have somewhat of a point. If you can't even follow instructions/requests to wear a lanyard to show solidarity, how can we expect you to pick up a sign when the time comes? Dead weight, and working in direct opposition of a market rate CBA, every one of them.
06-08-2017, 01:15 PM
#495
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Mar 2007
Position: Capt
Posts: 3,215
MANY airline mgmt are still stuck in the past.
As the pilot shortage gets worse and worse, EVERYONE will be competing with everyone else. If an airline is going to have a reasonable share of the pilots, then it's terms and conditions will have to be reasonable compared to even the top tier carriers, because that is who they will be competing with.
As the pilot shortage gets worse and worse, EVERYONE will be competing with everyone else. If an airline is going to have a reasonable share of the pilots, then it's terms and conditions will have to be reasonable compared to even the top tier carriers, because that is who they will be competing with.
06-08-2017, 01:40 PM
#496
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Oct 2015
Position: Gear slinger
Posts: 2,980
I'm not sure how to read this post. Whether you're saying this is JB so we should only get 10-20% (which will still leave us 20-40% behind) and if you want to be paid better you should leave, or our pilots are a bunch of juicers who won't even wear their lanyards so how do we expect to get what we deserve?
If it's the latter, you have somewhat of a point. If you can't even follow instructions/requests to wear a lanyard to show solidarity, how can we expect you to pick up a sign when the time comes? Dead weight, and working in direct opposition of a market rate CBA, every one of them.
If it's the latter, you have somewhat of a point. If you can't even follow instructions/requests to wear a lanyard to show solidarity, how can we expect you to pick up a sign when the time comes? Dead weight, and working in direct opposition of a market rate CBA, every one of them.
From management prospective there isn't a recruitment or attrition problem so there's no motivation to make rapid progress towards a CBA... it's Business supply and demand...why pay more for something they've already got enough for the flying they have when they can just maximize efficiencies from the pilot group they already have.
Folks complain all they want about it but when you've got plenty of people picking up extra flying, sell back PTO instead of using it and staying on the fence about whether or not they're going to leave until they see how progress with the CBA is going they aren't helping apply pressure on company management.
What causes airlines to change their MO? Loss of profits... how does a pilot group effect that? Staffing... every person who leaves JetBlue for a better operation will put pressure on management as they get closer to not being able to staff flights with their pilot group (supply goes down, demand goes up and compensation goes up to meet the new point on whatever graph they use).
Not going to get into the juicer vs not arguement, however every single pilot who stays at JetBlue and isn't trying to leave right now tells management that they're paying adequately for the operations they need and that the pilot group as a whole is satisfied with their compensation package.
Management knows that good will from the pilot group can be touchy so they gave the 8% pay raise to quiet the rumblings a litte bit (and figured it was a trade of profit sharing that benefited them) and are slow rolling the CBA process to give folks hope and keep them on the fence, staffing JetBlue flights.
Management knows they'll eventually have to pay more, but they don't like it and they want to postpone it for as long as possible. Slowing growth, reducing profits helps them present the case they can't afford to pay the group as much or as soon as it wants. As soon as attrition picks up from both new hires and guys with some longevity and they start to feel a pinch with pilot staffing they'll be more inclined to pay more, sooner.
For as much as folks complain about it, currently the status quo works in favor of managements goal of keeping pilot costs down.
06-08-2017, 04:02 PM
#497
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: May 2013
Posts: 2,594
The only comparison was that if those folk working at those types of gigs can find the time off and $ to pursue further their apps to the (other) majors anyone form JetBlue can as well. If JetBlue pilots aren't actively trying to get on with a career airline, they've got no one to blame but themselves.
Unfortunately JetBlue management sees its peers as Frontier, Spirit and Virgin America. It's pilots see their peers as SWA, United, AA and Delta. Management isn't going to willingly give a CBA on par with any of the groups you aspire to be like anytime soon without significant pressure. With the level of pressure they're receiving now (which really isn't all that much) you'll probably see an offer of 10-20% increase in pay in benefits when the first CBA comes around for approval (they were already trying to pacify you with an 8% raise and a reduction in profit sharing) in 18-24 months when they really start getting concerned with pilot manning.
Hopefully the pilot group votes the first contract down, then it'll be another 12-18 months until they get the second CBA produced which historically has something like a 90% pass rate regardless of what's in it.
JetBlue pilots are driven to be working under a top tier CBA, they need to apply to companies that offer them already instead of hoping and dreaming that one is going to fall into their lap because they have a union now. It's going to be a long time before they see one otherwise.
Unfortunately JetBlue management sees its peers as Frontier, Spirit and Virgin America. It's pilots see their peers as SWA, United, AA and Delta. Management isn't going to willingly give a CBA on par with any of the groups you aspire to be like anytime soon without significant pressure. With the level of pressure they're receiving now (which really isn't all that much) you'll probably see an offer of 10-20% increase in pay in benefits when the first CBA comes around for approval (they were already trying to pacify you with an 8% raise and a reduction in profit sharing) in 18-24 months when they really start getting concerned with pilot manning.
Hopefully the pilot group votes the first contract down, then it'll be another 12-18 months until they get the second CBA produced which historically has something like a 90% pass rate regardless of what's in it.
JetBlue pilots are driven to be working under a top tier CBA, they need to apply to companies that offer them already instead of hoping and dreaming that one is going to fall into their lap because they have a union now. It's going to be a long time before they see one otherwise.
Is anyone else seeing the frustration and resignation on line?
Feels like a different airline from 3 years ago. I like the 320 and the guys I fly with, but sked/pay and oblivious management **** me off.
06-08-2017, 05:44 PM
#498
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Oct 2015
Position: Gear slinger
Posts: 2,980
If you're not actively trying to find a better wife you're happy with the one you have.
If you're not actively trying to find a bigger house you're happy with the one you have.
If you're not actively trying to move to a different state you're happy with the one you have.
If you're not actively trying to find a bigger house you're happy with the one you have.
If you're not actively trying to move to a different state you're happy with the one you have.
From a management point of view if JetBlue pilots are willingly working for the pay and comepensation package they're paying them then the package is good enough.
They've noticed a slight problem with Newhire turnover- their solution seems to be to find folks that will stay longer because they don't have the background to get picked up by a legacy...
Beyond new hire turnover, in the minds of management, there's not very much pilot attrition therefore pilots are content therefore there's no reason to change bid against themselves and increase personnel costs. JetBlue pilots certainly aren't leaving for places that pay less so they're safe there, and since not many out of furloughs are leaving for the legacies they don't have to compete with them for pay/benefits in order to keep the pilots they have.
When pilots on property increasingly start to leave for the legacies and cite their pay and benefits compared to JetBlue as the reason they're leaving and management starts to fear that they won't be able to staff their flights if they can't keep their pilots then they'll start to compete with the legacies in terms of pay in benefits.
Management doesn't care about any one employee group as much as it cares about the company as a whole... when they perceive a weakness in one part of the company (pilot attrition for example) affecting performance and profits they'll move to improve on those areas to keep the operation running and profitable.
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