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I wasn’t going to respond but here I am. Yeah, I’d bet a few paychecks their stance on PS won’t change unless the entire BoD, management team, and their lawyers change out. Don’t take my word for it though...ask your reps or the current or past NC and get their opinion. If they walk out of the room when PS is mentioned now when there is no profit, and did the same when there was a ton of profit a few years ago during negotiations, why would they all of a sudden give that up next round? Thinking they might come around next time, when there is most likely zero leverage and the pilot group holds the keys to nothing, like they do now, defies logic.

And you keep saying I can’t know for certain when they will return to profitability, but that is completely irrelevant. As mentioned many times, PS only costs them money when they are profitable. So whether they are next profitable in 2022, 2023, 2025, or 2030, it doesn’t matter and doesn’t change the thesis behind my argument one iota.

Elismcpikle

I get what your sayin... is it worth risking my buddies at the bottom who can’t handle the possibility of getting tossed? Personally I won’t turn to the guy next to me and say sorry man, I’m risking your spot because I think we can get more.... meanwhile I’ll just keep picking up a billion trips because it’s awesome!!!

jstyle13

Totally agree. Seems like a no-brainer position for the pilot group to take now. I'm actually disappointed the MEC hasn't made the companies refusal to talk about the PS formula a non-starter for negotiating these LOAs.

Cirrusly

Stupid question over here...when is a company considered profitable again to issue PS checks? Do companies issue checks even when they are in enormous amounts of debt? This stuff is over my head...

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It’s based on reported income. See page 35 http://blueir.investproductions.com/...19-10k-web.pdf

You can have massive debt and still make profits. Profits are basically the money left after you take all your revenue and pay all your rent/lease/finance costs (including debt service), salaries/wages/benefits, fuel, etc.

Debt is irrelevant. All (well, most) companies carry debt even when they are making millions or billions in profits. Carrying the debt (leverage) is often thought as good, and that the leverage brings in more revenue and profit than the debt servicing costs on that debt. It’s not viewed as a bad thing (in moderation) in the corporate world like it is in personal finance. For example: prior to covid, all major airlines had billions in debt, but paid out millions/billions in profit sharing, and spent billions buying back stock (when they could have used the money to pay down debt). I went on this sidebar just to illustrate how debt isn’t viewed as bad, usually, and in controlled amounts and with revenue to support it. Well, post covid, debt levels have run up, terms are worse, and revenue was slashed—so now the debt is a problem. But in calculating profit sharing, debt servicing costs (interest payments) are in that calculation. So if the debt repayments are overwhelming the company, and the company is therefore not profitable, PS won’t pay out or be a cost for the company until the revenue comes back and exceeds all those costs (including debt service).

pilotpayne

It’s amazing how much we agree on some things and disagree on others.

on this I totally agree.

If any union rep that said the company will remember our good will during the next section 6 they need to quit.

gmafb you know what they will remember? When we had them we gave in again. F that. They announced the deal they said it is worth a ton of money so guess what, I want my PS that they took away. You are right it’s emotional they Fd us over because they could. Well new rules. I’m a no, unless it’s in there.

Softpayman

You wouldn’t but there are plenty of people here who would clearly rather play chicken with the bottom 1000 guy’s careers for the shot of getting profit sharing at a company that won’t be profitable anytime soon.

pilotpayne

if that’s the case why are they even talking with us if they could just do it?

pilotpayne

good point.
when was the last time we had O debt. Pretty sure we always have debt and yet can still be very profitable.

RiddleEagle18

Point 1). The argument made by many for the lack of profit sharing in CBA 1 was that times were good and we would never get it right now. They pointed to how delta got theirs during chapter 11 and the only time we would have a shot at our was during times of no profits.



Point 2) if the company can do most of it anyways then I guess the threat of furlough is pretty much BS as they have previously said that the agreement from the last loa was worth 40 airplanes.

So if we vote no what would we give up? An extra year at 2% to go back to the table and try again. I’m willing to give that a try.


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