The difference? The pay...
01-05-2006, 09:12 AM
#41
Line Holder
Joined APC: Aug 2005
Position: A320, left
Posts: 37
Originally Posted by dckozak
Mainly to get you to think, defend, debate your position, effect, and future in the greater cause of airline flying.
If you guy's weren't so cocky about, what??
At least the SWA pilots, god bless them, are improving thier lot, maybe not in the way some (in the cockpit or riding in the back) would like, but, for better or worse, they are partners to their future not just being told what it is.
You've been in business long enough that you and your colleiges should be taking greater control of your destiny. Before you jump on the "ALPA Hate wagan", go another direction, just, do something!!
You don't see Airtain catching sh** and thier package also sucks, but at least they are players in deciding their destiny.
If you guy's weren't so cocky about, what??
At least the SWA pilots, god bless them, are improving thier lot, maybe not in the way some (in the cockpit or riding in the back) would like, but, for better or worse, they are partners to their future not just being told what it is.
You've been in business long enough that you and your colleiges should be taking greater control of your destiny. Before you jump on the "ALPA Hate wagan", go another direction, just, do something!!
You don't see Airtain catching sh** and thier package also sucks, but at least they are players in deciding their destiny.
So I'll agree to being at an impasse, because we haven't built up the requisite animosity in JB to unionize. Who knows what will happen in the future -- maybe all you nay-sayers will turn out to have been incredibly insightful and not just greedy. I swear I will be the first to apologize and admit it. But having people at other airlines really really wanting us to unionize so that they have a chance to get paid more isn't a good enough argument.
I must admit that I'm confused by your saying that you just want us to think, argue, and defend, when I keep seeing well-thought-out argument after well-thought-out argument (and I'm not talking about me -- I'm a relatively recent poster) on the JB side summarily ignored and countered by "yeah, but you REALLY should get paid more. And unionize." over and over and over again from the other.
And I truly fail to see how "Actually, I really enjoy my job" in the face of "no you don't! your job sucks and your company sucks and you're a bunch of brain-dead freaks!" comes off as cocky.
btw, diamonddd, that was hilarious.
01-05-2006, 09:26 AM
#42
Line Holder
Joined APC: Aug 2005
Position: A320, left
Posts: 37
Originally Posted by Kill Bill
what if JB only offered 1-year contracts? would that still be a good thing as long as it "renewed" every year?
But I think my point is that I'd rather have even a 1-year contract and a promise to keep renewing from an organization I trusted than a 50 year contract from someone I was certain would just as soon kick me to the pavement and who even now had lawyers whose job it was to find ways out of the contract.
Once the trust is breached all bets are off, mind you. But I prefer to live in an atmosphere of "let's make this work, it's better for all of us" rather than "show me in writing, because your words are worth nothing." And you're entitled to your opinion, but it's pretty presumptious to tell JB pilots "you think it's a good thing, but it's a bad thing."
01-05-2006, 09:35 AM
#43
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Nov 2005
Posts: 2,002
Originally Posted by Baba Bluey
Lower the bar? What did you call it when CAL pilots bent over for the 900th time without a fight?
what will happen when everyone comes down to these rates? My buddy at airtran says management wants a 12% increase in productivity either though pay cuts or work rule changes to get that competitive advantage that they are losing back. If the LCC have such a great business plan that is so better then the majors can't they pay the same while still doing it better and cheaper?
do people really not think that the LCC's haven't lowered the bar. you may be happy with what you make but it still lowered the bar. I feel like I'm taking crazy pills and watching Zoolander where no one sees that ferrari, le tigra and magnum are all the same look.
Imagine having to sit in the right seat of the 190 for 4 years. It may not be that way now but it will be in the future as you grow. The bar has definately been lowered.
eric
01-05-2006, 10:11 AM
#44
done, gone skiing
Joined APC: May 2005
Position: Rocking chair
Posts: 1,602
Originally posted by SitBackRelax
Ahhhh....OK. It's clear now. Code words again. "the greater cause of airline flying." "improving their lot" "partners to their future" "players in deciding their destiny" All meaning Guys, please unionize. I really wish you'd just say that instead of dancing around it. It would have saved us a lot of time.
Ok you caught me. I figured using the U word would just shut some of you down. Hey I work at a place without a credit union, we have a credit association
SitBackRelax
So I'll agree to being at an impasse, because we haven't built up the requisite animosity in JB to unionize. Who knows what will happen in the future -- maybe all you nay-sayers will turn out to have been incredibly insightful and not just greedy. I swear I will be the first to apologize and admit it. But having people at other airlines really really wanting us to unionize so that they have a chance to get paid more isn't a good enough argument.
I guess animosity is one reason to unionize, but I would disagree that it is either nessary or required to do so. And greed has nothing to do with it either (see pay and benefits of all lecacy carriers and most unionised freight and commuters). Let me give some examples that will make my point.
When you buy a house, do you pay the asking price or try to convince the seller to accept less??
When your (company's) owners/management buy jet's from Airbus, do (did)
they pay the asking price from Airbus or did they to come to some agreement that was (for JB) more favorible??
When you bought your car, did you pay the price on the sticker??
To save you the trouble of answering no to all the above (on the other hand if you do say yes to question 1 and/or 3, I gotta..........you'll just love..)
I know, using lots of word to say, negoiate your compensation. Don't just accept that the largest, most expensive idiem you possess (your time and skill) is or will be compensated fairly. You wouldn't think of buying a house without a contract yet you work without one. Which will have a greater affect on your life style and happiness, the home you worked hard to not over pay for, or your job?? Should you default all major decisions regarding pay, retirement, QOL, etc to your employer, who's first duty is to keeping cost as low as possible to increase value to the stockholders??
Maybe you think your getting paid what your worth, fair enough. We'll talk again if some other up start invades (JB) turf with lower fares made possible by pilots/FA's/rampers working for less than you are
As far as being happy with your job, it was a given (by me at least) that you would be. Your defending your company/non-union status/pay, your debating on this forum with those who's opinion is different. If I was in your shoes, I probably would do the same. I like to believe though that I, would be thinking about how to improve on what I have (and I don't think its greedy to want more).
Ahhhh....OK. It's clear now. Code words again. "the greater cause of airline flying." "improving their lot" "partners to their future" "players in deciding their destiny" All meaning Guys, please unionize. I really wish you'd just say that instead of dancing around it. It would have saved us a lot of time.
Ok you caught me. I figured using the U word would just shut some of you down. Hey I work at a place without a credit union, we have a credit association
SitBackRelax
So I'll agree to being at an impasse, because we haven't built up the requisite animosity in JB to unionize. Who knows what will happen in the future -- maybe all you nay-sayers will turn out to have been incredibly insightful and not just greedy. I swear I will be the first to apologize and admit it. But having people at other airlines really really wanting us to unionize so that they have a chance to get paid more isn't a good enough argument.
I guess animosity is one reason to unionize, but I would disagree that it is either nessary or required to do so. And greed has nothing to do with it either (see pay and benefits of all lecacy carriers and most unionised freight and commuters). Let me give some examples that will make my point.
When you buy a house, do you pay the asking price or try to convince the seller to accept less??
When your (company's) owners/management buy jet's from Airbus, do (did)
they pay the asking price from Airbus or did they to come to some agreement that was (for JB) more favorible??
When you bought your car, did you pay the price on the sticker??
To save you the trouble of answering no to all the above (on the other hand if you do say yes to question 1 and/or 3, I gotta..........you'll just love..)
I know, using lots of word to say, negoiate your compensation. Don't just accept that the largest, most expensive idiem you possess (your time and skill) is or will be compensated fairly. You wouldn't think of buying a house without a contract yet you work without one. Which will have a greater affect on your life style and happiness, the home you worked hard to not over pay for, or your job?? Should you default all major decisions regarding pay, retirement, QOL, etc to your employer, who's first duty is to keeping cost as low as possible to increase value to the stockholders??
Maybe you think your getting paid what your worth, fair enough. We'll talk again if some other up start invades (JB) turf with lower fares made possible by pilots/FA's/rampers working for less than you are
As far as being happy with your job, it was a given (by me at least) that you would be. Your defending your company/non-union status/pay, your debating on this forum with those who's opinion is different. If I was in your shoes, I probably would do the same. I like to believe though that I, would be thinking about how to improve on what I have (and I don't think its greedy to want more).
Last edited by dckozak; 01-05-2006 at 10:37 AM.
01-05-2006, 11:02 AM
#45
Guest
Posts: n/a
Originally Posted by Eric Stratton
didn't they have to stay competitive with the jetblue's and airtrans and get their payscales in line?
what will happen when everyone comes down to these rates? My buddy at airtran says management wants a 12% increase in productivity either though pay cuts or work rule changes to get that competitive advantage that they are losing back. If the LCC have such a great business plan that is so better then the majors can't they pay the same while still doing it better and cheaper?
do people really not think that the LCC's haven't lowered the bar. you may be happy with what you make but it still lowered the bar. I feel like I'm taking crazy pills and watching Zoolander where no one sees that ferrari, le tigra and magnum are all the same look.
Imagine having to sit in the right seat of the 190 for 4 years. It may not be that way now but it will be in the future as you grow. The bar has definately been lowered.
eric
what will happen when everyone comes down to these rates? My buddy at airtran says management wants a 12% increase in productivity either though pay cuts or work rule changes to get that competitive advantage that they are losing back. If the LCC have such a great business plan that is so better then the majors can't they pay the same while still doing it better and cheaper?
do people really not think that the LCC's haven't lowered the bar. you may be happy with what you make but it still lowered the bar. I feel like I'm taking crazy pills and watching Zoolander where no one sees that ferrari, le tigra and magnum are all the same look.
Imagine having to sit in the right seat of the 190 for 4 years. It may not be that way now but it will be in the future as you grow. The bar has definately been lowered.
eric
I'm not happy with what I make. How much is enough? It never is. The 190 rates are an insult to me and they are an insult to everyone who works here. The good news is that those wheels are turned by Jetblue pilots and we have a chance to be a sucessful company and raise the rates that were forced upon us.
The problems with this industry are reflective of a free market economy left unchecked by government and incredibly high energy prices. We've got people in this country losing their livelihoods and greedy scumbags up top taking it all in and justifying it with a wink and a nod from Uncle Sam. Where is the outrage there?
When a LCC with the lowest CASM in the industry ...with a proven product...and still can't make money, could it be possible that the problem is somewhere else?
Take the other pill dude. The ones you're on ain't working.
Last edited by Baba Bluey; 01-05-2006 at 11:05 AM.
01-05-2006, 11:28 AM
#48
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Oct 2005
Position: CR7 Capt
Posts: 1,621
Ok, here is a question for anyone who cares to answer. Why doesn't JB form their own union like Southwest. I believe SWA has SWAPA. Maybe Jetblue can form JBAPA or something like that. Honestly I don't know if I would vote in ALPA. I don't see where they have been helping their pilots much. They are all losing their pensions and pay. They keep giving in to managment. Though, I have got to say, I think the best thing for the industry is Reregulaton by the government but, I could be and probably are wrong in saying that.
01-05-2006, 12:54 PM
#49
Guest
Posts: n/a
Originally Posted by Baba Bluey
I see you had nothing to offer the last time I replied to you. Please enlighten me with your common sense.
SJS.
01-05-2006, 01:40 PM
#50
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Aug 2005
Posts: 324
Let's put it this way, Bill. If that 5-yr "maybe" renewable contract ever *didn't* renew for someone, even the worst screwup on the property, we woudn't be having this conversation. There'd be a union drive on already. The system works on trust and if that's ever breached, you'd have 1300 very ****ed off pilots making phone calls and casting ballots.
The thing is, management knows this, so your implication that you could be on the street for not kissing enough ass is an empty one. It's not something I worry about.
The thing is, management knows this, so your implication that you could be on the street for not kissing enough ass is an empty one. It's not something I worry about.
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