Kill Bill

i know it's a fine distinction between a company that has an actual contract, union representation, and that ends your probation after the first year and a company that uses "renewable" 5 year contracts so they can get rid of anyone who breathes the word "union" and makes you behave like good little boys. oh, and has really great emb-190 pay scales.

bon appetit!

Blue Dude

Sounds to me that you've described a situation that can't be proved. If nobody is let go by being non-renewed (and nobody has), that means that they are all spineless and haven't been union rabble rousers. (It also means that there's not much reason for a union, but never mind that). But the minute that someone *is* let go by being non-renewed, the uproar would guarantee a union vote, and you'd simply say that the pilot in question *was* a rabble rouser who was let go because he tried to organize the property. Nice little scam you got going here. But it's all based on conjecture and precious little fact. So what is your point exactly, that JetBlue needs a union now, to protect the pilots from themselves? Or that management is playing a deep game, the pilots are doomed but don't know it yet, and they need a union now? Or is it that pilots need a union, 'cause you say so?

Don't you think that maybe, just maybe, JetBlue pilots might just know what's in their own best interests better than you do? Can you admit the possibility that that might be true? Or is it, ultimately, all about you?

Double Digit

Hey Bill,

What has ALPA done for you lately? Not a rag but they have no power. No ALPA contract is being honored right now. I breathe the word union every time I talk to Bushy. (VP of Ops). JAPA (Jetblue Airways Pilots Association).
Not ALPA. I had 15 years of ALPA and thats enough for anyone!

I'm still here! Amazing!

SitBackRelax

Well no, actually that's not a fine distinction at all, but thanks for taking a shot at subtlety, as that's been sorely lacking on this board.

Actually wait, I just re-read the last half of your paragraph and I take that back, that's not subtle at all, it's the same old hyperbole.

But fine, be that as it may, where we have a major difference in opinion (and no it's not that I or anyone else have "ignored" your points or "don't get them"), is that you appear to believe that it's what's on paper that's of prime importance and I believe that it's the intent behind what's on paper and the motivations of the people involved that's most important. Which is why I said I'd rather work under no contract at all for a company I trust than under an eternal contract for a company who I know is looking for every angle to weasel all they can out of me. Not only is that a gut feeling of mine, but as confirmation I point to the last 20 years of the airline industry, with bankruptcy after bankruptcy, with contracts broken and/or tossed aside regularly, particularly in the last few years.

I understand that this idea is foreign to you and to anyone who has been in this industry for a long time. The system has been built on mutual distrust for years -- both sides plot and scheme about how to wring all they can out of the other for a few years, then the contract is re-negotiated, everyone goes back to their corner and either congratulates each other or gnashes teeth and tosses blame around for a while, and the cycle begins anew. And frankly, I think that historically management earned that distrust, many times over, so the system has had to work that way.

Right now though, I work for a company that has done its best to break that cycle and build teamwork and esprit-de-corps based on "hey, we've got your back, we're not going to screw you. It works out better in the long run this way." What's more, and this is key, it's that trust that the two groups use as leverage -- both sides know that once it's broken all bets are off. Leverage by mutual trust in place of leverage by lawyers and threats. So far they haven't earned our distrust and by and large we're pretty happy with the way things are going. Is this so strange? Doesn't anyone find it just a bit odd that the people saying it sucks at JetBlue and it's a horrible place to work are all people who don't work at JetBlue? And all you can come up with to rebut this is that it must be like Scientology?? Come on...

How about we agree to disagree on how things should be run, we wish each other well in our respective jobs and we cool it on the insults instead?

SitBackRelax

Fair question. Why 5 years and not forever?

My understanding is that it relates to the no furlough policy. Basically if things got so bad that they had to let people go, they'd be committed under the contract to pay the pilots they're letting go 70 hours/month for the remainder of their contract period, vice cutting them loose and saying we'll call you when we get to you. Is this better or worse than furloughing? Don't know. Open to debate. I do know that a contract that says we won't furlough you but guarantees you a job forever in this industry is laughable.

Also it has to do with dispute resolution -- if it got down to arbitration with someone, the pay for the remainder of their 5 year period would be a max that they're entitled to I believe. This I'm admittedly foggy on.

I do know this though:
- no one has been let go after 5 years for talking about unions. There's talk about unions all the time. It's just that the vast majority appears to be against the idea now.
- no one has been let go AT ALL at the end of their contract
- there's no atmosphere of "better be good, that contract is hanging over my head." People speak their minds regularly to Bushy, Barger, Neeleman and the rest.
- If they ever cut someone loose at 5 years just because he/she "****ed off the wrong person" it would change the entire dynamic of the company and would basically throw away everything we're trying to build.

That's how I understand it at least.

Kill Bill

i think what you don't understand, despite your claims, is that the whole structure of jet blue is suspect, from your pay scales, to your work rules, to your 5-year contracts, to your companies attempts to legalize transcon turns with 2-man crews, etc. and you guys think it's GREAT! i'm glad you enjoy being the kings of substandard; pardon me if i don't enjoy it along with you as you have certainly helped drive the profession down another notch.

i'm sure you will all rejoice as i tell you i'm done with this thread. you are happy being substandard and nothing will change that. wait until you try to get improvements to your "contract" or neeleman suddenly sells his stock. perhaps then you'll get it. but it will be too late.

banger

Bill
My neighbor is a young enthusiastic great natured guy. I've known him since he was 10. He always wanted to be a pilot. Since I was a Navy pilot he always looked up to me and had a million questions about flying. I always enjoyed helping him. I recommended the military route but he decided to go civilian. Got all his ratings and eventually was flying right then left seat for CAL express. Always telling me what a great company CAL was. So proud to be there. I was very happy for him. Soon he was going over to CAL mainline because they had a nice flow thru agreement. Based at EWR then SoCal.
Saw and spoke with him a year back or so. The enthusiasm was gone. Bitter and unhappy. So sad to see him that way. Apparently CAL just decided to drop the flow agreement with his express carrier. Never understood why or how the flow thru was dropped at CAL and I didn't feel like asking him as it was like rubbing salt in the wound. What happened? Do you know?

diamonddd

Thanks for everything you have done. I'll have a shrimp in your honor.

SitBackRelax

OK. I give already. It's not a difference of opinion, it's that I don't understand and you do. Thanks for coming and trying to enlighten us all. Sorry it didn't work out for you.

Shrimp for everyone! It's on me!

Kill Bill

that's pretty much it. i'd say most people would agree that working for 2/3's of what everyone else gets and working on a five-year contract in a field that's usually based on working for a career of 30 years or more and being thrilled about it is a little strange. must be that 2-year upgrade.

now i sould say that you guys work for closer to 3/4's these days. thanks very much for helping make that a reality for those of us who used to make good money and had retirements.