crgok9

Red, first I would like to say that I understand that you mean nothing personally, nor do I take it as such. I enjoy the banter. However, pre 911 rates at Airways were great until 911 happened. At one point the Airways contract was the best in the industry. However, B6 was around since February of 2000. The Airways rates did not miss a beat until 911, the following bankruptcy and the management cuts that were backed by the liberal courts. B6 had absolutely no effect on their pay rates until a tremendous amount of outside forces all came together to topple the industry. It was only then that B6 became the Albatross on industry pay scales. All of the sudden B6 destroyed the pay scales...not so. Do I think that pay scales would have fallen to where they are without B6? Of course I do, in fact, perhaps lower. The pay scales at B6 were higher than some of the other carriers that had been around much longer than B6 so it is possible that B6 pay scales actually "stopped" the major airline pay scales from falling further than they did if you are convinced that B6 is the benchmark for post 911 pay. Hell, V and Professor should be thanking us! Hey guys...you are welcome...no problem, glad we could help. Even if V won't let us ride his jumpseat. I would just use a pass on one of his flights anyways.

Also, Red, yes, I agree that all at B6 is not right. The 190 pay scales are truly a product of a management that did what it could get away with since there were so many pilots on the street. I don't agree with it nor do I condone it, but it is what it is and also without a union, yes, we have zero recourse. However, there are many things at B6 that are very right that would not be with a union on the property. I've seen and been a part of the union politics and they truly suck. I have seen a lot of carnage left behind from a union negotiated deal. Bottom line, business is business. So when the junior guys are sold out for the benefit of the more senior guys and layoffs happen at least those guys on the street get an Air Inc membership and maybe a preferential interview.

Does anybody even really know what the B6 pay scales are here or are you all just assuming that you do?

crgok9

No, it means the company would be able to stay lean and actually keep their pilots on the property during bad times and avoid furloughs. Hey, I might actually still have a job instead of that Air Inc membership, all costs paid. Cool.

ProfessorJoeVee

Said like someone who truly has no respect or understanding of the industry....

So instead of calling you a knob, sc@b, idiot, or mangement material let me give you some more work productivity enhancements you might look at:

--Loss of vacation days

--Stand-Up Overnights

--Loss of 1 in 7 legalities

--Decrease in layover requirements

--Increase 100 hour in a month legality

Where does it end? At what point will JetBlue pilots draw the line? The 8 in 24 has been an industry standard since the days of Pan Am (who put the rule in place).

mpflis

As I am far removed from the industry, my opinions are expressed solely for the support of a system of which I believe Jetblue and it's blue shirt clowns have dismantled since September 11th.....individual contracts, below standard payscales, cleaning airplanes, flight attendant interviews, etc And so I don't single out any group, I also include the majority of "regional" airlines and their hunt for flying bigger and better equipment at reduced rates as if they should be a "CAREER" airline. What a disillusioned and pathetic state the airline industry finds itself!!! I can't remember how many times I heard crusty old f#@$s speak of regional jets revolutionizing the industry as their counterparts at the majors were losing routes, people, and morale. And young bucks would also be drunk on this koolaid that their jobs were what the airline life was all about. They would speak with such pride as their sh#t airlines grew at the expense of others. I firmly believe these tools to have been former rejects of the major airline interview process, and this being their only form of retribution. Jetblue and others like it have taken a job that was once the envy of many professional careers and turned it into a circus where pilots clean airplanes, payscales suffer for growth, and contracts are individualized not unionized. I remember a few years back that guys were talking about JB as if it were some savior to their crap regional job, something that would remove them from a lifestyle of overworked mediocrity. What a joke. I raise my glass to many more unprofitable years for the JB team, and that this pathetic breed of regional pilot remain regional pilots for their long pathetic career. This pessimism runs deep for what was once a GREAT industry has taken a turn for the worse, and although these pilots are not the only ones to blame, they have definitely contributed to the problem.

RedeyeAV8r

Your entitled to your opinion.............

Furloughs suc no matter who you work for, but if you have been in this industry for any length of time, you learn that they come with the territory.

Many furloughees from ALPA carriers got their Medical premiums paid for a couple years after, and yes they got a Paid Air inc membership..................What will your guys get if a furlough at JB happens? (not wishing 4 it).

Many ALPA pilots Living in the Gulf that were wiped out by Katrina and Wilma had 0% loans and other assistance offered by fellow ALPA pilots.

ALPA was singularly responsible for getting the FFDO program.
ALPA is responsible for many of the current Protective FAR's
What Positive things have the Pilots of Jet Blue done for this career as a whole?

Bottom line is you can't say this industry would be better off without Unions.

No offense but I couldn't make Jet Blue or others like it a career. A stepping stone maybe, but not a career. Good luck in you and Your fellow Jet Blue Pilots getting significant Pay and work rule enhacements so that the Union represented carriers Have a Bar to shoot for.

crgok9

First off, Pro...has any of this changed? Didn't think so. Why is it that some of our archaic rules in the FAA are just fine to override when flying international...heck, look at supplimental.

Too many carriers already do stand up overnights, where have you been? They have been around for years. Which leads into reduced rest for overnights...what do you think a stand up overnight is? It is a reduced rest overnight that allows you to go to a hotel for maybe 5 hors if you are on time. 100 hour month, doesn't part 135 allow 120 hour month now? Where is your beloved union protection for those guys. You are so full of ^&*(.

crgok9

Once again guys, everybody is barking about how bad B6 pay is...does anyone know what it is???

mpflis

dude your on the APC forum, but since your not capable of looking yourself....ill spoonfeed

http://airlinepilotcentral.com/airli...c/jetblue.html

RedeyeAV8r

Yeap.....CAP A320 rate is $110/hr yr 1 maxing out @ $147/hr in year 12.

How many guys are currently getting the 12 year rate ??

It could be $300 and wouldn't matter if no one has that longevity yet? as it could be changed at the whim of MGT.

BTW, hourly rates only tell part of the story.
What are your RIGS/ work rules?
What type of Company paid Pilot disability do you have?
What type of FAA certificate action protection do ou have?
Who will come to your Aide if you are involved in an accident/incident?
What type of retirement do you have?


All most of us are saying is we need to get everyones rates back up. In order to do that the NON Union carriers need to organize so they can legally negotiate. Without Union representation all you can do is beg.
We went through that at FedEx and finally said enough..............That is the Gist of what most of us are saying.......Period

crgok9

Well, Red, I wish I had the pay scales in front of me...I don't. However, I do know that your pay scales do not reflect the new pay and benefits package that B6 is about to have issued.

Let's go off of your numbers for a first year CA at say 83 hours credit. The grand total before taxes would be 9845.00 per month for a first year CA. What you didn't mention is that all hours above 70 are paid at time and a half. Basically, at 7 year pay I am grossing over 11K per month, not including per diem. Our new contract will improve that by 5%. At my seniority level that credit would allow me anywhere from 16 to as many as 20 days off in a month. Our min days off in a month is 12 and in most cases only reserves are held to that minimum. A junior line holder normally averages 14 to possibly 16 days off per month.

To answer all of the other questions I once again would need to look over a contract which I do not have in front of me.