crgok9

As I have said in other threads...there were and still are many other airlines that started prior to B6 and their pay scales have been low for many years. In fact, B6 offered a pay scale that was above some of these carriers that have been around since the 90's. Many of the legacy ALPA carrier A320 pay rates are actually lower than the current rates at B6. Did B6 cause that? No, as you stated Red, the courts escalated the process and the respective managements took full advantage. B6 had nothing to do with it, period.

With regard to B6 having protection if we go to bankruptcy...obviously we have nothing. We have nothing now which is why our E190 pay scales have been so terribly dismal. I agree with one thing for certain...without a union we have zero protection from anything. What the company wants is what happens. However, in bankruptcy with ALPA or any other union, as soon as the contract is gone...union carriers have no protection either. You are simply at the free will of the bankruptcy court judge. A320 pay rates at Airways are still terribly low and they have been out of bankruptcy for awhile now. In fact, those rates are still lower than rates at B6. So...when does the union bring those rates back to pairety with pre 911 scales?

ALPA is not the target here, nor is it the point. Honestly, I have been with ALPA for 20 years now and I have had good and bad. Surprisingly, more bad than I believe should have been do to politics between the union and management. Any union could be mentioned, however, it is ALPA that continues to allow the dismal pay scales for regional airline pilots flying jet equipment. Stepping stone or not...a post 911 regional flying job is now considered a career. Furthermore, what about the guys that are happy with a regional career, even pre 911? Do those guys deserve less pay for flying complex regional 70-90 seat jets simply because they are content in their current position?

I am sorry Redeye, I don't agree with that at all. If we are going to talk as though unions are the end all, be all and the right way to go in this business regardless of everything else that is happening then we need to protect everyone. Not just the majors, every single union airline. Are you willing to leave your seat and strike in support of ASA, ComAir, or even another major airline to obtain fair wages? I kind of doubt it.

ProfessorJoeVee

Pay is only one of the plethora of items a union negotiates. Please show me just one instance where I mentioned it in reguard to JetBlue. You won't be able to find it.

Just to reset the issues where JetBlue is destroying the industry and is a danger to every Professional Pilot:

--Independant negotiated 5 year contracts

--Working with the company to destroy FAR Duty Limits via extending them

--Allowing non-sanctioned and FAR violating studies without FAA consent to attempt to back-end FAR Duty Limit extenions

--A non-union corporate attitude that squashes and chills unionization

homer j

Now, the facts. Every contract is exactly the same, and I didn't negotiate a thing. I knew what I was signing when I started here. I am in my sixth year at JB, and I didn't have to do a thing to begin my sixth year. Not one of our pilots "worked with the company to destroy FAR duty limits." The test was approved by our POI, the flights were flown, the data was collected, and the program was dropped. Show me one FAR that's changed as a result of these flights. By the way, the Feds realized their mistake, were embarrassed by it, and didn't fine us one cent. How about DL's changing of the rules as far as their Intl flights. Not one mention of them for some reason in all the ALPA talk. Lastly, a "non-union corporate attitude that squashes and chills unionization?" Does an airline have to have a union to be successful? Why, because that's the way it's always been? I have no doubt that we will be unionized at some point, but constant extreme rants from the likes of you and green face won't help your cause, that I know for sure.

ProfessorJoeVee

I think the real number was around thirty JetBlue pilots were used in the study.

Any Union airline would have squashed this because they would have had the seen that it degraded the profession.

JetBlue pilots don't stand a chance.

RedeyeAV8r

You missed my point entirely. You don't think JB's low rates or other Non Union carriers affects the rest of the indusrty?
In my previous post, I said I don't blame you personally. But you mention USAir Pay rates being slightly below Jet Blue..(Where were they before 9/11?)...........BTW....none of the ALPA contracts were voided (so far) ALPA was at least able to negotiate their concessions (Unlike the FA's and Mechanics of Northwest). All the MEC's agree that they had to give away alot of things they fought hard for and acheived over the last 20 years.

But why do you think the 320 pay rates are all + or Minus a few dollars of Jet Blue wages. If you guys had a higher hourly rate (as well as the other NON union carriers) what do you think USAir's and UALs 320 payrates would have fallen to? I know it is pure conjecture, but I am willing to bet it would have been higher if your rates were higher................And BTW USAir is currently in negotiations and I'm sure you would like to see them get a 15-30 $/hr bump, as it would only high lite your low rates.

As far as what the Reigonal guys are willing to work for..............Your own admission of JB's E-190 payrates have set the bar low for the rest of the Regional guys. (Oh and USAir is getting E-190's too do you think JB's low rates have a negative effect on their efforts?
It is certainly up to them to negotiate their own deals but as long as there are many NON Union carriers with low pay scales, it makes it very difficult for the Unions to negotiate higher rates.........wouldn't you agree?

All I am saying is that we (all of us professional Pilots) would be better off iif we were covered under one Union Umbrella. A pipe dream ? Maybe, but we would be better off. If you guys Unionize and get your 320 rates up it benefits us al plain and simple.

Again, not pointing the finger, just stating the obvious. And to your last point, I would love to see a National SOS for a day and Yes I would be wiling to do it. (and I am lucky work a carrier that is considered "the place to be" right now)a It would be extemely hard to pull off. It would be easier under 1 union banner, wouldn't you agree............BTW I welcome JB Pilots on my jumpseat. The few JB Pilots I had ride were former ALPA (Furloughed) folks who want JB to have a UNION and a contract. Where do you stand??

I don't worship ALPA, it is just that they are really the only game in town when it comes to an organization that best protets the interests of professional pilots.......warts and all.

So come on Jet BLue guys.......sign those cards, get a Union and a "collective bargained" agreement.

homer j

Professor, who do you work for? I would like to know what ALPA carrier to apply to when we fold...

ProfessorJoeVee

Oh, you won't fold; you'll just live like slaves.

homer j

So you won't say who you work for...pretty much what I figured...

crgok9

Any union airline would have squashed it because if the rules were changed it would mean more productive flying for the pilots already on the property which also means not "as many" new hires to cover the available flying. In other words...more jobs...more dues to the union...that is the unions interest...not the degredation of the industry. You are so full of it. Trust me, the union has self serving issues just like any other entity.

RedeyeAV8r

The Union is US, (apparently not you)
Gee, more pilots hired means everyone one moves up the list. Yeap, that would be a bad thing.

Actually doing JFK-OAK-JFK outbacks would be a bad thing...........................dam those Unionists ofr trying to stop it.