legend

A couple of questions. Some of you have said that by working for JB etc. is undercutting your contracts at your airline by accepting lower pay which therefore damages your efforts to make more money, benefits etc. right? Have any of you ever taken less pay than your brothers at other airlines when you were voting on your contracts? The answer is YES. Your pilot groups voted on contracts in the past and the chips fell were they did. V said that when some airlines took pay cuts that they had no control or choice I think. Sure they/you did! If the end result was not what you wanted then your fellow/union brothers sold you out. So if that is the case V, then you need to get a list (if legal) of all your brothers and sisters who voted yes, wait not just at your airline but every airline with ALPA who had a contract and voted yes, get their names and refuse their jumpseat too. V, you also said professionals dont stab professionals in the back. Your fellow union guys/gals that voted yes falls under your category it seems. You say you are a professional but you stab too BUBBA. You contradict yourself all the time. I am a professional but I am going to persecute every pilot of an non union for your own political purpose than has no realistic impact other than causing a jumpseat war and that is why you (Mr. Chicken Little) have not revealed(confirmed) where you work. Point the finger and it keeps coming back your way. I wonder Why! An airline recently took a vote and they voted yes for the contract. Under your philosophy they stabbed you and every one else when they could have made a different choice. But they didnt. Everyone has a choice when they vote or accept a job somwhere and everyone should share some responsibility. By the way I support ALPA but your ways is not supported by them. Oh now you will tell me I need a history lesson and have no idea how the industry works! That is debateable but you are unprofessional.

taylorjets

o boy...here we go yet again...

de727ups

"Even Flightinfo would give a guy a second chance"
"Any moderators care to comment?"

This isn't flightinfo, for one.

"Busting balls" as a form of personal entertainment should be, and is, discouraged as it does nothing but cause flamefests. That's a flightinfo thing, not an APC thing.

What the guy did, I have no idea. But somebody at a higher pay grade than me canned him. That's good enough for me.

Perhaps you could assist the guy in contacting the admins. Maybe they would agree with you. I don't think you'll get an answer from them at the forums.

captjns

Nah, I haven’t heard from any pilots of non union carriers being denied a jump seat for that fact. So lets say it is a fact, and you just don’t have the balls.


Wrong again Ace. I have been in aviation long before you were 30 seconds of pleasure and daddy’s little squirt.

About reports to your chief pilot…. I knew your reply would be exactly what I what it would be. You talk a mean game on this site. But son, you just don’t have the balls to face any pilot from non-union carriers about your tenets.

In the past, I have had to deny rides to people for reasons which are clearly stated in our FOM ranging from not enough room on the jet to problems with credentials being expired. I don’t hide behind my company’s FOM, gate agent, or my F/O when a fellow crew dog can’t ride on my jet. When a jump seat is denied, I have the courtesy to personally tell the individual why he/she can’t ride the jet. I don’t lie, nor do I leave the ill deed to the gate agent, or the F/O. But NEVER!!!! and I mean NEVER have I denied a jump seat for same reasons as you.

If you feel that strongly about pilots of non union airlines, you NEED to get out their and opine your views! Hide behind the mask so your identity won’t be revealed.

captjns

Amen to that!!!!

Don’t let the Green Faces of this industry be like an interfering mother en-law. Labor wise, you guys just continue doing exactly what you are doing at your own pace. You know more than anyone else what goes on behind those “bedroom doors”.

Fins Up

I will help Gman out in that manner. Since I never read the post, I'm trying to get the info from him on what happened. Then I will appeal to the admin/moderators for a little forgiveness. I just figured they might happen upon this post and share an answer for all to read.

ProfessorJoeVee

The big problem with what you have stated is that if a group of pilots represented by a Union took a pay cut, the contract was voted into place collectively. At JetBlue everyone is an independant contractor.

In addition a union would go in and stop things like FAR busting unsanctioned studies, FAR duty limit extension request, ect...

Everyone seems to have forgotten that a Union is there for more than pay issues.

Unions are a unified force against actions taken by the company and a barrier against unsafe operation practices. They allow the individual to appraoch the company with concerns while not putting his job into danger.

It is abundantly clear that this is lacking to non-existent at JetBlue.

Each time a JetBlue pilot joins hands with the company to do a FAR bustin unsanctioned study, goes to the FAA asking for FAR duty relief you are stabbing me and every other Professional pilot in the back who fought for these standards. It is a Sc@b mentality.

What is it going to take to get you to understand it just isn't about pay?

Velocipede

JoeVee,

You've pretty much said it all. However, there a none so blind as those that will not see. Most of these guys don't (or won't) understand that ALPA is democracy with a little d.

They just don't get the fact that furloughs are a MANAGEMENT decision, not an ALPA decision. Instead of placing the blame for furloughs where it belongs (MANAGEMENT) they blame ALPA for not doing something (what?) to prevent it.

Likewise with pay issues. MANAGEMENT is the one that took US, UA and DL to bankruptcy court to vacate thier labor agreements and steal the pilot's pay and retirement. And under the same threat, NWA had no option but to acquiesce or face the same draconian furloughs and/or bankruptcy.

Both these situations are the polar opposite of taking a non-Union job knowing full well the pay and benefits sets the standard for other airline managers to match. As long as there are pilots willing to sell themselves for less, airline managers from other airlines will seek to pay commensurate wages with the lowest level paid for flying comparabale airplanes.

When you add intentional non-compliance with FAR flight/duty time limitations in order to help your MANAGEMENT attain duty time limit waivers, it is no wonder that pilots turn away in disgust whenever they see a blue shirt coming.

Skyone

So, what you are saying is that in the final analysis, unions are powerless unless they walk off the job. Powerless to stop the managements' decisions to bk the airlines, powerless to stop furloughs, powerless to prevent paycuts (even though voted on) powerless to stop the termination of retired pilots' pensions (with the help of local Alpas). Powerless to do anything other than walk, then take the chance that the job won't be there at the end. Seems like what you are "educating" everyone about here, Major Green face, is that individual unions are weak in the face of a hardball management.

Age 60, for instance. The only way you will ever stop that train is through an SOS (suspension of service) by everyone. But since you are probably ALPA and have begun the alienation of the B6 pilots against ALPA if ever an SOS did come down the line will there be a national consensus by the unions at B6, VA, SB, not to mention the SWA union, UPS, AirTran and of course the big dog American. All non ALPA carriers probably not adhering to ALPA's call for an SOS over some issue.

So continue to act like a child with your toy, alienate all the pilots at the new upstarts, don't acknowledge them on the hotel van-you are doing a hellva job bringing the industry back to the standards it once was. IE, if you think the unions have the power to do the above. As I have said, these pilots groups will unionize when THEY feel the need. And wouldn't it be nice to have these groups speaking as one at a true national union, instead of ten voices on capital hill.

To continue this, how do you feel about the "new" membership of former CAL scabs back in the national union? But I forget, you don't answer questions, just shoot from the hip.

ProfessorJoeVee

Indeed. The Unions are powerless as long as there are sc@bs and people willing to work for sc@b mentality companies.

Just so we are clear: I am talking about people like you and the JetBlue boys.

Rock your wings if you read me.