Combining with Alaska Airlines for a Stronger
12-30-2023, 12:31 PM
#261
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Joined APC: Apr 2023
Posts: 128
A JCBA could in *theory* contain language perpetuating a HNL base/hub. But no airline would likely ever sign such a document, they don't know what the future holds.
Merger policy protects pilots from other pilots. It does not protect pilots from most airline or industry structural changes. No airline will sign a CBA which guarantees any pilot base for very long (obviously no such language needed for SEA).
HAL pilots can, should, and presumably will get WB fences. My recollection is that domicile fences are not the norm but I'd be happy to fence domiciles on both sides of the water, if that can be done.
I don't think AS pilots should get a widebody windfall at the expense of HA pilots, or be able to bid HNL at the expense of HA pilots.
I also don't think HA mainland commuters should get a west coast domicile windfall at the expense of AS pilots.
In both cases, career expectations.
Yes they'll have to re-assure local pols and regulators. They might even end up having to put some things in writing regading local HI jobs.
But as you say, I wouldn't bank on much that's not in writing. With that said, I do think AS managers sincerely intend to retain and grow the long-haul business. What the future actually holds, and how well that works out for them, is TBD.
Merger policy protects pilots from other pilots. It does not protect pilots from most airline or industry structural changes. No airline will sign a CBA which guarantees any pilot base for very long (obviously no such language needed for SEA).
HAL pilots can, should, and presumably will get WB fences. My recollection is that domicile fences are not the norm but I'd be happy to fence domiciles on both sides of the water, if that can be done.
I don't think AS pilots should get a widebody windfall at the expense of HA pilots, or be able to bid HNL at the expense of HA pilots.
I also don't think HA mainland commuters should get a west coast domicile windfall at the expense of AS pilots.
In both cases, career expectations.
Yes they'll have to re-assure local pols and regulators. They might even end up having to put some things in writing regading local HI jobs.
But as you say, I wouldn't bank on much that's not in writing. With that said, I do think AS managers sincerely intend to retain and grow the long-haul business. What the future actually holds, and how well that works out for them, is TBD.
The 330s are old, most if not all, are leased. They will be gone sooner than later.
There are 12 787s coming to Hawaiian. That’s if nothing changes. Sure put up a fence for half of the current wide body fleet.
Phase out the other half of the current wide body fleet in exchange for 737 max 10s that are coming.
Fence HNL base- fine- pilots will fly 737 to mainland and then 2 more days of current Alaska 737 destinations then fly back to HNL. The senior Alaska guys will fly SEA to HNL and then do 2 days of interisland enjoying the overnights and then fly back to SEA.
Then in 5 years maybe Alaska starts taking 787s and the top of their seniority list will get those all based on SEA while everyone from HAL with the awesome SLI is stuck flying 737s domestically for rest of career. After 5 years no one is going to enforce career expectations, especially when wide body aircraft are not part of Alaska right now, it’s not like they are going to save them for HAL pilots when they make an order years from now.
Sorry to be so negative but it’s just how it is. Anyone junior at Hawaiian is not going to have career expectations met anywhere close to current. I guess that’s better than going through a bankruptcy and having to start over completely though.
We haven’t even mentioned starting JCBA negotiations in a weak global economy after everyone is ****ed from however the arbitration integrated the list.
Last edited by FyrePilot; 12-30-2023 at 12:44 PM.
12-30-2023, 04:08 PM
#264
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Joined APC: May 2019
Posts: 129
Spoke with my Alaska buddies and they said their MEC is fairly sure that this will be a smooth SLI.
They think it will be mostly just straight date of hire integration with fences for wide bodies to satisfy the 'career expectation' clause of the merger language.
They really really don't want to mess with another outcry of "this guy got X years of free unearned seniority over me from the integration" stuff that happened from Virgin merger apparently...
They think it will be mostly just straight date of hire integration with fences for wide bodies to satisfy the 'career expectation' clause of the merger language.
They really really don't want to mess with another outcry of "this guy got X years of free unearned seniority over me from the integration" stuff that happened from Virgin merger apparently...
12-30-2023, 04:38 PM
#265
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Joined APC: Apr 2018
Posts: 682
It's an established concept that in addition to DOH, Relative Seniority is also one of the other factors considered during prior airline mergers. It was not unique or novel to the VX/AS SLI process, so as upsetting as it might be, it is very probable that you or I will find a pilot hired after us at his airline, ahead of us after the ASHA SLI..
12-30-2023, 07:12 PM
#267
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Joined APC: Mar 2022
Posts: 705
I think the fences in terms of WB airframes are a moot point for anyone not in top 20% of HA seniority in the next 5 years.
The 330s are old, most if not all, are leased. They will be gone sooner than later.
There are 12 787s coming to Hawaiian. That’s if nothing changes. Sure put up a fence for half of the current wide body fleet.
Phase out the other half of the current wide body fleet in exchange for 737 max 10s that are coming.
Fence HNL base- fine- pilots will fly 737 to mainland and then 2 more days of current Alaska 737 destinations then fly back to HNL. The senior Alaska guys will fly SEA to HNL and then do 2 days of interisland enjoying the overnights and then fly back to SEA.
Then in 5 years maybe Alaska starts taking 787s and the top of their seniority list will get those all based on SEA while everyone from HAL with the awesome SLI is stuck flying 737s domestically for rest of career. After 5 years no one is going to enforce career expectations, especially when wide body aircraft are not part of Alaska right now, it’s not like they are going to save them for HAL pilots when they make an order years from now.
Sorry to be so negative but it’s just how it is. Anyone junior at Hawaiian is not going to have career expectations met anywhere close to current. I guess that’s better than going through a bankruptcy and having to start over completely though.
We haven’t even mentioned starting JCBA negotiations in a weak global economy after everyone is ****ed from however the arbitration integrated the list.
The 330s are old, most if not all, are leased. They will be gone sooner than later.
There are 12 787s coming to Hawaiian. That’s if nothing changes. Sure put up a fence for half of the current wide body fleet.
Phase out the other half of the current wide body fleet in exchange for 737 max 10s that are coming.
Fence HNL base- fine- pilots will fly 737 to mainland and then 2 more days of current Alaska 737 destinations then fly back to HNL. The senior Alaska guys will fly SEA to HNL and then do 2 days of interisland enjoying the overnights and then fly back to SEA.
Then in 5 years maybe Alaska starts taking 787s and the top of their seniority list will get those all based on SEA while everyone from HAL with the awesome SLI is stuck flying 737s domestically for rest of career. After 5 years no one is going to enforce career expectations, especially when wide body aircraft are not part of Alaska right now, it’s not like they are going to save them for HAL pilots when they make an order years from now.
Sorry to be so negative but it’s just how it is. Anyone junior at Hawaiian is not going to have career expectations met anywhere close to current. I guess that’s better than going through a bankruptcy and having to start over completely though.
We haven’t even mentioned starting JCBA negotiations in a weak global economy after everyone is ****ed from however the arbitration integrated the list.
I'd consider it a win you'd get to fly around the islands on a fairly new MAX. Probably an 8. With fairly cool people. Unless you were junior HAL and you were just dying to do some widebody flying or were chasing the 787 type.
I can only control my own actions and there is no way I'd ever want to fly a 330 or 787. So you're not going to have to worry about me. But if you're junior trust me. You don't want to fly with the kind of senior AS pilot who's going to chase the 787.
12-30-2023, 07:38 PM
#268
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Joined APC: Mar 2019
Posts: 37
As an AS pilot I am personally hopeful that every senior pilot from AS moves to the 787. It would tremendously improve life for FOs where I am based in Seattle. It could also improve the 737 training program. As most of the personalities that any normal person would want to avoid would likely wind up being on a Widebody and probably running the training program.
I'd consider it a win you'd get to fly around the islands on a fairly new MAX. Probably an 8. With fairly cool people. Unless you were junior HAL and you were just dying to do some widebody flying or were chasing the 787 type.
I can only control my own actions and there is no way I'd ever want to fly a 330 or 787. So you're not going to have to worry about me. But if you're junior trust me. You don't want to fly with the kind of senior AS pilot who's going to chase the 787.
I'd consider it a win you'd get to fly around the islands on a fairly new MAX. Probably an 8. With fairly cool people. Unless you were junior HAL and you were just dying to do some widebody flying or were chasing the 787 type.
I can only control my own actions and there is no way I'd ever want to fly a 330 or 787. So you're not going to have to worry about me. But if you're junior trust me. You don't want to fly with the kind of senior AS pilot who's going to chase the 787.
12-30-2023, 07:59 PM
#269
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Apr 2023
Posts: 128
As an AS pilot I am personally hopeful that every senior pilot from AS moves to the 787. It would tremendously improve life for FOs where I am based in Seattle. It could also improve the 737 training program. As most of the personalities that any normal person would want to avoid would likely wind up being on a Widebody and probably running the training program.
I'd consider it a win you'd get to fly around the islands on a fairly new MAX. Probably an 8. With fairly cool people. Unless you were junior HAL and you were just dying to do some widebody flying or were chasing the 787 type.
I can only control my own actions and there is no way I'd ever want to fly a 330 or 787. So you're not going to have to worry about me. But if you're junior trust me. You don't want to fly with the kind of senior AS pilot who's going to chase the 787.
I'd consider it a win you'd get to fly around the islands on a fairly new MAX. Probably an 8. With fairly cool people. Unless you were junior HAL and you were just dying to do some widebody flying or were chasing the 787 type.
I can only control my own actions and there is no way I'd ever want to fly a 330 or 787. So you're not going to have to worry about me. But if you're junior trust me. You don't want to fly with the kind of senior AS pilot who's going to chase the 787.
If Alaska eventually gets 787s I am sure they will go senior and be based in SEA. That’s fine. I absolutely cannot stand the PNW. I have no desire to live, work, or be based there. I also have no desire to fly a 737 (even if it’s a max) for a company based in the PNW when I live in a WN base where it’s sunny, warm, and not drowning in homelessness and drugs. I went to HA to fly WB international- to do flying it would take 15+ years at a legacy to get. I planned on upgrading on the 330 for freight and then eventually making it back to the left seat in the pax side with a line in the left seat in about 10-12 years
Those plans and expectations are gone now.
I suppose it’s better than a bankruptcy as this acquisition provides a soft landing. It’s not the career stagnating black swan event but it is definitely not good for me or anyone else junior at HAL that had similar aspirations.
12-30-2023, 08:35 PM
#270
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Mar 2022
Posts: 705
Thanks for painting the picture. With microscopic exceptions, the HAL senior training couldn't be more different from what you just described. I just spoke with a guy who recently transitioned from 321NEO to 330, with check pilots in the top 5%, he said it was the most chill, big picture, supportive training event of his career.
Hearing what you describe at HAL I'd love for that kind of positive learning to somehow make it's way to AS.
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