A day to be remembered or forgotten?
12-13-2015, 01:37 AM
#1
Gets Weekends Off
Thread Starter
Joined APC: May 2013
Posts: 232
A day to be remembered or forgotten?
Last Monday completed 74 years the Japanese attack on Pearl Harbor, one of the most painful days of American History. I share with you here a link that brings a collection of dramatic photos, many of them rare, showing the devastation caused by the attack on the airfields of the island. Visit the link below and answer the title question.
Aviação em Floripa: O Dia da Infâmia em Fotos
Best Regards!
Aviação em Floripa: O Dia da Infâmia em Fotos
Best Regards!
12-13-2015, 03:43 AM
#2
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Nov 2012
Position: ERJ, CA
Posts: 718
On Pearl Harbor Day, I wanted to post a remembrance, but did not, because I didn't want to start some pointless argument.
Please watch this to gain understanding.
Japan's role in World War II in color Documentary
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8F6b1yn2osI
BBC, Hell in the Pacific
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GkfNfgsqWLE
NHK, Japan's View of the Pacific War
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8icQgHsBGzg
Most Americans and other nations peoples have ancestors and even living relatives who were alive during that war. Those who lived through it, frequently said little about it until fairly recently. I think it takes at least 50 years to come to begin to try to dispassionately analyze a war in which your own country fought.
We really have to avoid putting 21st century context and values on a war with 19th century and early 20th century origins. For countries like China and Korea, they still have not been able to forgive and forget. My own grandfather did not fight the Japanese as he was unqualified to go to war, yet he held a big grudge against them until his death. Another relative did serve on destroyers in the pacific and would not talk about it, but I think it clearly affected his behavior.
The war still is being played out by countless internet trolls due to games like War Thunder. Trolls in mom's basement are spitting out hatred for selfish, stupid, uninformed reasons. The Rape of Nanjing is still very much present in the minds of all Chinese I have talked to, whether from China, Taiwan or Singapore. Most American, Brits and Australian participants in the war have forgiven the Germans, but many have not forgiven the Japanese.
The Pacific War was simply horrendous compared to the European campaign for the western allies. The fear and anger toward Japan still exists across Asia. The Japanese still, unfortunately, refuse to teach their children about the systematic atrocities their military committed. Yet, there is plenty of evidence that is not simply allied propaganda. So the war still has a lasting effect and will for another 50 years. My fear and concern is that the US govt. will tap in to the similarities between the beheadings ISIS has done and the beheadings the Japanese did and use this to associate the great cause of world war two with US intervention in the middle east. I think, something we have to learn from World War Two is to be aware of the conditions that give rise to a police state and not to re-fight the war in the 21st century.
Please watch this to gain understanding.
Japan's role in World War II in color Documentary
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8F6b1yn2osI
BBC, Hell in the Pacific
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GkfNfgsqWLE
NHK, Japan's View of the Pacific War
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8icQgHsBGzg
Most Americans and other nations peoples have ancestors and even living relatives who were alive during that war. Those who lived through it, frequently said little about it until fairly recently. I think it takes at least 50 years to come to begin to try to dispassionately analyze a war in which your own country fought.
We really have to avoid putting 21st century context and values on a war with 19th century and early 20th century origins. For countries like China and Korea, they still have not been able to forgive and forget. My own grandfather did not fight the Japanese as he was unqualified to go to war, yet he held a big grudge against them until his death. Another relative did serve on destroyers in the pacific and would not talk about it, but I think it clearly affected his behavior.
The war still is being played out by countless internet trolls due to games like War Thunder. Trolls in mom's basement are spitting out hatred for selfish, stupid, uninformed reasons. The Rape of Nanjing is still very much present in the minds of all Chinese I have talked to, whether from China, Taiwan or Singapore. Most American, Brits and Australian participants in the war have forgiven the Germans, but many have not forgiven the Japanese.
The Pacific War was simply horrendous compared to the European campaign for the western allies. The fear and anger toward Japan still exists across Asia. The Japanese still, unfortunately, refuse to teach their children about the systematic atrocities their military committed. Yet, there is plenty of evidence that is not simply allied propaganda. So the war still has a lasting effect and will for another 50 years. My fear and concern is that the US govt. will tap in to the similarities between the beheadings ISIS has done and the beheadings the Japanese did and use this to associate the great cause of world war two with US intervention in the middle east. I think, something we have to learn from World War Two is to be aware of the conditions that give rise to a police state and not to re-fight the war in the 21st century.
Last edited by bedrock; 12-13-2015 at 04:01 AM.
12-13-2015, 04:55 AM
#3
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Nov 2006
Position: 767 FO
Posts: 8,047
And the Chinese don't teach about the cultural revolution. Psst I don't feel guilty because my great great grandpa didn't own slaves. Nor do I feel guilty about Sherman's March to the sea or dropping the big one on Hiroshima. We can't apply values retroactively. But if you are going to win a war and make it stick, the other guy has to know he got his ass kicked.
12-13-2015, 05:51 AM
#4
Runs with scissors
Joined APC: Dec 2009
Position: Going to hell in a bucket, but enjoying the ride .
Posts: 7,730
A couple good books about how the Japan soldiers treated US captives in WW2;
Flyboys:
Overview
FLYBOYS is the true story of young American airmen who were shot down over Chichi Jima. Eight of these young men were captured by Japanese troops and taken prisoner. Another was rescued by an American submarine and went on to become president. The reality of what happened to the eight prisoners has remained a secret for almost 60 years. After the war, the American and Japanese governments conspired to cover up the shocking truth. Not even the families of the airmen were informed what had happened to their sons. It has remained a mystery - until now. Critics called James Bradley's last book "the best book on battle ever written." Flyboys is even better: more ambitious, more powerful, and more moving. On the island of Chichi Jima those young men would face the ultimate test. Their story - a tale of courage and daring, of war and of death, of men and of hope - will make you proud, and it will break your heart.
and Unbroken;
On a May afternoon in 1943, an Army Air Forces bomber crashed into the Pacific Ocean and disappeared, leaving only a spray of debris and a slick of oil, gasoline, and blood. Then, on the ocean surface, a face appeared. It was that of a young lieutenant, the plane's bombardier, who was struggling to a life raft. So began one of the most extraordinary odysseys of the Second World War.
The lieutenant's name was Louis Zamperini. In boyhood, he'd been a cunning and incorrigible delinquent. As a teenager, he had channeled his defiance into running, discovering a prodigious talent that had carried him to the Berlin Olympics. But when war had come, the athlete had become an airman, embarking on a journey that led to his doomed flight, a tiny raft, and a drift into the unknown.
Ahead of Zamperini lay thousands of miles of open ocean, leaping sharks, a foundering raft, thirst and starvation, enemy aircraft, and, beyond, a trial even greater. His fate, whether triumph or tragedy, would be suspended on the fraying wire of his will. Unbroken is a testament to the resilience of the human mind, body, and spirit.
No wonder our WW2 Pacific veterans wouldn't be caught dead driving a Toyota or a Honda.
And if you really want to learn some great history on the beginnings of the Strategic Air Command, and the air war strategy in both Europe and Japan, read this Curtis Lemay biography:
THE FIREBOMBING OF TOKYO. Strategic Air Command. John F. Kennedy. Dr. Strangelove. George Wallace. All of these have one man in common—General Curtis LeMay, who remains as unknowable and controversial as he was in life.
Until now. Warren Kozak traces the trajectory of America’s most infamous general, from his troubled background and heroic service in Europe to his firebombing of Tokyo, guardianship of the U.S. nuclear arsenal in the Cold War, frustrated career in government, and short-lived political run. Curtis LeMay’s life spanned an epoch in American military history, from the small U.S. Army Air Corps of the interwar years to the nuclear age.
LeMay: The Life and Wars of General Curtis LeMay tells the whole story of the innovative pilot and navigator; the courageous general who led his bomber formations from the front, flying the lead bomber; the brilliant strategist; the unflagging patriot; and the founder of modern strategic bombing, who was famous and notorious in turns.
In LeMay: The Life and Wars of General Curtis LeMay, you’ll learn:
•How LeMay developed the strategy and techniques that transformed Allied bombing in World War II, radically improving results and saving lives
•Why he developed the plan of fire-bombing Tokyo
•Why he expected a war with Russia
•How he tried to prevent the Bay of Pigs disaster
•Who really came up with the idea of bombing the North Vietnamese back into “the Stone Age”
•Why he agreed to be George Wallace’s running mate in the election of 1968—despite loathing Wallace and most of his policies
LeMay: The Life and Wars of General Curtis LeMay gives an unprecedented glimpse into the might and mind of one of the founding fathers of air power, whose influence, and controversy, continues to this day.
Show Less
Flyboys:
Overview
FLYBOYS is the true story of young American airmen who were shot down over Chichi Jima. Eight of these young men were captured by Japanese troops and taken prisoner. Another was rescued by an American submarine and went on to become president. The reality of what happened to the eight prisoners has remained a secret for almost 60 years. After the war, the American and Japanese governments conspired to cover up the shocking truth. Not even the families of the airmen were informed what had happened to their sons. It has remained a mystery - until now. Critics called James Bradley's last book "the best book on battle ever written." Flyboys is even better: more ambitious, more powerful, and more moving. On the island of Chichi Jima those young men would face the ultimate test. Their story - a tale of courage and daring, of war and of death, of men and of hope - will make you proud, and it will break your heart.
and Unbroken;
On a May afternoon in 1943, an Army Air Forces bomber crashed into the Pacific Ocean and disappeared, leaving only a spray of debris and a slick of oil, gasoline, and blood. Then, on the ocean surface, a face appeared. It was that of a young lieutenant, the plane's bombardier, who was struggling to a life raft. So began one of the most extraordinary odysseys of the Second World War.
The lieutenant's name was Louis Zamperini. In boyhood, he'd been a cunning and incorrigible delinquent. As a teenager, he had channeled his defiance into running, discovering a prodigious talent that had carried him to the Berlin Olympics. But when war had come, the athlete had become an airman, embarking on a journey that led to his doomed flight, a tiny raft, and a drift into the unknown.
Ahead of Zamperini lay thousands of miles of open ocean, leaping sharks, a foundering raft, thirst and starvation, enemy aircraft, and, beyond, a trial even greater. His fate, whether triumph or tragedy, would be suspended on the fraying wire of his will. Unbroken is a testament to the resilience of the human mind, body, and spirit.
No wonder our WW2 Pacific veterans wouldn't be caught dead driving a Toyota or a Honda.
And if you really want to learn some great history on the beginnings of the Strategic Air Command, and the air war strategy in both Europe and Japan, read this Curtis Lemay biography:
THE FIREBOMBING OF TOKYO. Strategic Air Command. John F. Kennedy. Dr. Strangelove. George Wallace. All of these have one man in common—General Curtis LeMay, who remains as unknowable and controversial as he was in life.
Until now. Warren Kozak traces the trajectory of America’s most infamous general, from his troubled background and heroic service in Europe to his firebombing of Tokyo, guardianship of the U.S. nuclear arsenal in the Cold War, frustrated career in government, and short-lived political run. Curtis LeMay’s life spanned an epoch in American military history, from the small U.S. Army Air Corps of the interwar years to the nuclear age.
LeMay: The Life and Wars of General Curtis LeMay tells the whole story of the innovative pilot and navigator; the courageous general who led his bomber formations from the front, flying the lead bomber; the brilliant strategist; the unflagging patriot; and the founder of modern strategic bombing, who was famous and notorious in turns.
In LeMay: The Life and Wars of General Curtis LeMay, you’ll learn:
•How LeMay developed the strategy and techniques that transformed Allied bombing in World War II, radically improving results and saving lives
•Why he developed the plan of fire-bombing Tokyo
•Why he expected a war with Russia
•How he tried to prevent the Bay of Pigs disaster
•Who really came up with the idea of bombing the North Vietnamese back into “the Stone Age”
•Why he agreed to be George Wallace’s running mate in the election of 1968—despite loathing Wallace and most of his policies
LeMay: The Life and Wars of General Curtis LeMay gives an unprecedented glimpse into the might and mind of one of the founding fathers of air power, whose influence, and controversy, continues to this day.
Show Less
12-13-2015, 08:19 AM
#5
Banned
Joined APC: Sep 2015
Posts: 85
And America doesn't teach about it's crimes, either.
It was/is a day to be remembered, but in the proper historical context. There are so many who are ignorant of the full picture it's worth taking the time to put it down here.
In 1850 Japan had isolated itself from the outside world for the previous 220 years. In that time, there were huge technological advances in military equipment/tactics that enabled Western powers like Britain, France, and a young America to engage in programs of colonization of other territories/nations, stealing their wealth and resources to enrich themselves and make them powerful. In 1852, Japan was still wielding swords, bows, and arrows on small sailing ships whereas the Western powers were wielding guns and cannon on ocean-going steam-powered vessels.
In 1852 then-Capt. William Perry, under orders from President Millard Fillmore, forcibly kicked open Japan's front doors demanding a trade agreement with Japan after sailing into what is now Tokyo Bay and training his cannons on the Japanese capital city (then called Edo), threatening destruction unless his demands were met. Powerless to stop him, the Japanese could only give in.
Thus began Japan's rush to build up arms. Forced to open itself to the world, the Japanese vowed to never let such humiliation happen to itself again. It studied how the Western powers had used force of arms to secure and control "colonies", stealing their resources to enrich themselves. Japan's leadership vowed to create a nation just as strong and powerful as any Western nation, to never again be subject to the humiliation Perry forced upon them in 1852. And they were wildly successful too, shrewdly playing the Western powers off one another in trade agreements that rapidly brought Japan up to par with Western powers re: military technology, tactics, and weaponry. (See: "The Last Samurai" starring Tom Cruise that broadly points to this time period in Japan)
By the time the 1930's came around, Japan was not a nation to be trifled with. It had long-term trade agreements in place with many Western nations, including the US, and had the ability to enforce them. When Japan invaded China...following the Western power's strategy of colonization for national power, wealth and prestige by robbing other nations of their resources...the US protested and threatened to cut off vital supplies (like oil) to Japan.
At this point, the Japanese were offended. To their mind, they were simply playing the world domination game by the rules/methods established by the Western elite. And now, when they were in a position to truly take their place at the table, the Western elite were trying to tell them they couldn't. This was seen as a very grave insult.
Being very quick studies, the Japanese knew that the US would threaten them with war after threatening to break it's treaties with Japan and cut off it's vital energy supplies. Indeed, Japan's invasion of China was intended both to make Japan less reliant on Western resources, reducing the West's economic influence upon Japan, as well as enrich itself and thus become more powerful.
So Japan did the only thing it could do. It began preparing itself for war with the US, and begin plotting their only hope for forestalling a US military onslaught...Pearl Harbor. If the Japanese could sink the 3 US aircraft carriers at Pearl along with the other major capital ships (ie. battleships), it would buy the time it needed to secure it's holdings in China and the Pacific rim before the Americans could bring war to Japan. And, at that point, the US would be forced to reach a new treaty with Japan, recognizing Japan's new Empire (or so the Japanese thought). Or else engage in an unthinkable war of attrition whose outcome would by no means be guaranteed by America in spite of it's great resources.
The bottom line is this...
America brought Pearl Harbor and it's war with Japan upon itself...a massive case of "unintended consequences"...that all began with then-Captain William Perry forcibly kicking down the front doors of Japan in 1852. Anyone angry at the Japanese, then or now, should rightfully be directing their anger and hatred at their fellow Americans of previous generations....the same one's that committed genocide against the American Indians in the white man's theft of land and resources from those who were there long before them.
And no....this isn't political correctness....it is historical fact. And it also stands as an excellent example of Biblical wisdom, specifically that "the sins of the father are visited to the 7th generation". Perry and Fillmore didn't pay the price for their folly, but their descendants sure did.
It was/is a day to be remembered, but in the proper historical context. There are so many who are ignorant of the full picture it's worth taking the time to put it down here.
In 1850 Japan had isolated itself from the outside world for the previous 220 years. In that time, there were huge technological advances in military equipment/tactics that enabled Western powers like Britain, France, and a young America to engage in programs of colonization of other territories/nations, stealing their wealth and resources to enrich themselves and make them powerful. In 1852, Japan was still wielding swords, bows, and arrows on small sailing ships whereas the Western powers were wielding guns and cannon on ocean-going steam-powered vessels.
In 1852 then-Capt. William Perry, under orders from President Millard Fillmore, forcibly kicked open Japan's front doors demanding a trade agreement with Japan after sailing into what is now Tokyo Bay and training his cannons on the Japanese capital city (then called Edo), threatening destruction unless his demands were met. Powerless to stop him, the Japanese could only give in.
Thus began Japan's rush to build up arms. Forced to open itself to the world, the Japanese vowed to never let such humiliation happen to itself again. It studied how the Western powers had used force of arms to secure and control "colonies", stealing their resources to enrich themselves. Japan's leadership vowed to create a nation just as strong and powerful as any Western nation, to never again be subject to the humiliation Perry forced upon them in 1852. And they were wildly successful too, shrewdly playing the Western powers off one another in trade agreements that rapidly brought Japan up to par with Western powers re: military technology, tactics, and weaponry. (See: "The Last Samurai" starring Tom Cruise that broadly points to this time period in Japan)
By the time the 1930's came around, Japan was not a nation to be trifled with. It had long-term trade agreements in place with many Western nations, including the US, and had the ability to enforce them. When Japan invaded China...following the Western power's strategy of colonization for national power, wealth and prestige by robbing other nations of their resources...the US protested and threatened to cut off vital supplies (like oil) to Japan.
At this point, the Japanese were offended. To their mind, they were simply playing the world domination game by the rules/methods established by the Western elite. And now, when they were in a position to truly take their place at the table, the Western elite were trying to tell them they couldn't. This was seen as a very grave insult.
Being very quick studies, the Japanese knew that the US would threaten them with war after threatening to break it's treaties with Japan and cut off it's vital energy supplies. Indeed, Japan's invasion of China was intended both to make Japan less reliant on Western resources, reducing the West's economic influence upon Japan, as well as enrich itself and thus become more powerful.
So Japan did the only thing it could do. It began preparing itself for war with the US, and begin plotting their only hope for forestalling a US military onslaught...Pearl Harbor. If the Japanese could sink the 3 US aircraft carriers at Pearl along with the other major capital ships (ie. battleships), it would buy the time it needed to secure it's holdings in China and the Pacific rim before the Americans could bring war to Japan. And, at that point, the US would be forced to reach a new treaty with Japan, recognizing Japan's new Empire (or so the Japanese thought). Or else engage in an unthinkable war of attrition whose outcome would by no means be guaranteed by America in spite of it's great resources.
The bottom line is this...
America brought Pearl Harbor and it's war with Japan upon itself...a massive case of "unintended consequences"...that all began with then-Captain William Perry forcibly kicking down the front doors of Japan in 1852. Anyone angry at the Japanese, then or now, should rightfully be directing their anger and hatred at their fellow Americans of previous generations....the same one's that committed genocide against the American Indians in the white man's theft of land and resources from those who were there long before them.
And no....this isn't political correctness....it is historical fact. And it also stands as an excellent example of Biblical wisdom, specifically that "the sins of the father are visited to the 7th generation". Perry and Fillmore didn't pay the price for their folly, but their descendants sure did.
Last edited by SqueeG; 12-13-2015 at 08:29 AM.
12-13-2015, 08:34 AM
#6
Squawking 2000
Joined APC: Jul 2015
Position: Skeptical
Posts: 737
Had a good chat about it a few years ago as my (Japanese born) FO and I taxied past a JAL 787. Somewhat weird for them to fly a plane made by the same company that fire/atom bombed their county almost out of existence not too long ago.
My grandfather was at Pearl Harbor. He told me through clenched teeth about going out in a raft and tying a rope around an arm, or a leg, or whatever was left of his buddies to bring their bodies ashore. He hated the Japanese with seething anger until the day he died. He thought we shouldn't allow Japanese cars on US roads.
Now I drive a Honda and my FO and I drank beers together watching a baseball game on the overnight. Sometimes the fact that a previous generation's experience and hatred doesn't transfer is a good thing.
Respect and honor the past, but try to learn from it and move on.
My grandfather was at Pearl Harbor. He told me through clenched teeth about going out in a raft and tying a rope around an arm, or a leg, or whatever was left of his buddies to bring their bodies ashore. He hated the Japanese with seething anger until the day he died. He thought we shouldn't allow Japanese cars on US roads.
Now I drive a Honda and my FO and I drank beers together watching a baseball game on the overnight. Sometimes the fact that a previous generation's experience and hatred doesn't transfer is a good thing.
Respect and honor the past, but try to learn from it and move on.
12-13-2015, 08:51 AM
#7
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Nov 2006
Position: 767 FO
Posts: 8,047
And America doesn't teach about it's crimes, either...
And no....this isn't political correctness....it is historical fact. And it also stands as an excellent example of Biblical wisdom, specifically that "the sins of the father are visited to the 7th generation". Perry and Fillmore didn't pay the price for their folly, but their descendants sure did.
And no....this isn't political correctness....it is historical fact. And it also stands as an excellent example of Biblical wisdom, specifically that "the sins of the father are visited to the 7th generation". Perry and Fillmore didn't pay the price for their folly, but their descendants sure did.
But somehow you took my post a critique of Japan, I don't judge Japan any more harshly than the Romans. But I have to say your take on WW2 is confusing. Pearl Harbor may have been pay back for the signs of the father but Hiroshima was pay back for the dirty sleazy sneaky bastards who pulled it off, and it saved a 100,000 American and half a million Japanese lives.
Finally the average citizen of Philippines, Malaysia, Indonesia,South Korea, Japan, and maybe China were better off because Japan got their ass kicked forward from the 1700s into the 20th Century.
12-13-2015, 10:42 AM
#8
Banned
Joined APC: Sep 2015
Posts: 85
Apologies FDXLAG. I didn't intend for you to view my post as a response to your's, only the single sentence underneath your quote. I should've made that clear.
The bulk of my post above is actually intended for anyone who thinks that the Japanese had no cause nor reason to attack America and put the entire history into context. Pearl Harbor didn't just happen, there was a long chain of events that led up to it.
In a very real sense, America started the fight in 1852 and we were VERY lucky to be able to finish it 92 years later. Had the Pearl Harbor attack successfully completed it's mission objective(s), world history would be very different indeed.
This in no way excuses the Japanese for their brutalities and crimes either. Sadly, as the victor America was not made to pay for it's crimes and brutalities, as would have been fair and just. The absolute genocide of the American Indians forever and permanently blemish our nation and it's history, much less anything else. We aren't the gift to the world we think we are, and we won't be until we take into account ALL the harm we have caused along with any of the good we may take credit for.
So when you hear "Remember Pearl Harbor", be sure to remember that the US started it in 1852 when we unlawfully and unjustly kicked in the front doors of a nation THAT WAS MINDING IT'S OWN BUSINESS, just because we could.
The bulk of my post above is actually intended for anyone who thinks that the Japanese had no cause nor reason to attack America and put the entire history into context. Pearl Harbor didn't just happen, there was a long chain of events that led up to it.
In a very real sense, America started the fight in 1852 and we were VERY lucky to be able to finish it 92 years later. Had the Pearl Harbor attack successfully completed it's mission objective(s), world history would be very different indeed.
This in no way excuses the Japanese for their brutalities and crimes either. Sadly, as the victor America was not made to pay for it's crimes and brutalities, as would have been fair and just. The absolute genocide of the American Indians forever and permanently blemish our nation and it's history, much less anything else. We aren't the gift to the world we think we are, and we won't be until we take into account ALL the harm we have caused along with any of the good we may take credit for.
So when you hear "Remember Pearl Harbor", be sure to remember that the US started it in 1852 when we unlawfully and unjustly kicked in the front doors of a nation THAT WAS MINDING IT'S OWN BUSINESS, just because we could.
12-13-2015, 02:53 PM
#9
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jul 2007
Position: 767 Captain
Posts: 3,989
I really have to marvel at the twisted logic you’re using throughout your history lesson. I guess all the current citizens of the United States should make sure we keep an appropriate level of self-loathing today for every bad decision, policy, actions or even crimes committed by past generations?
So, let me see if I follow your justification of Pearl Harbor.
First, you compare worldwide expansion and colonialization efforts of the US, Britain and France beginning in the early 1800’s to expansion efforts by Japan in the 1930s, one hundred and thirty years later.
92 years before Pearl Harbor, the United States exercises some gunboat diplomacy with Japan which forced them out of their self-imposed stone age of 220 years with a treaty (not invasion). By your own account, this seemed to have a positive effect on Japan because by the 1930’s, they were “not a nation to be trifled with”. The trade agreements you mentioned along with impressive military strength all seem to be an overall improvement from Japan’s status as an isolationists country with swords and arrows in 1852.
So, this forced treaty in 1852 humiliates Japan (and apparently motivates them into the modern age, but we’ll conveniently ignore that). Apparently, national humiliation is a “get out of jail free” card in your world view. By the 1930’s, the British Empire is shrinking and they haven’t attempted to expand it using military force in a generation. French colonies are on the decline as well. The United States main territorial acquisitions of the 20th century were accomplished peacefully, not by invasion. I think it’s safe to say that by the 1930’s it really wasn’t in vogue any longer to simply invade another country because you wanted their stuff. Wasn't that sort of the whole problem with Hitler in Europe a few years later? The fact that you attempt to justify Japan’s invasion of China by claiming they were just following the example set by the major powers almost a century earlier is ludicrous. Should we have given Adolf a pass too?
Of course the U.S. (and other civilized nations of the 20th century) protested the invasion. According to you, Japan expected the “well you guys did it tooooooooo” (in the last century, but let’s not split hairs) argument to cover them and got mad when it didn’t. So, at that point, since they experienced a “grave insult” and they were concerned about possible consequences from their invasion, the only thing left to do is a sneak attack on Pearl Harbor.
So, we brought it on ourselves because we forced a trade agreement on Japan almost a century before. Shoot, if we use that logic, I guess it would be just fine with you if Israel pulled some kind of sneak attack Germany tomorrow and used the holocaust to justify it.
France and England have pulled so much crap on each other over their history, I guess anything goes, right? Either one would be justified in a preemptive strike, especially if there was a grave insult involved too.
And to top it all off, let’s not forget the Native Americans!!!! My God, the Native Americans. No matter what good we have done in the world or will do in the future, we all suck because of what some of our ancestors did to the Native Americans.
Reality check – We, us, you, me, no one alive today did jack squat to the Native Americans. As far as Japan and your Biblical wisdom goes…… it may not be in the Bible but have you ever heard of “two wrongs don’t make a right”?
So, let me see if I follow your justification of Pearl Harbor.
In 1850 Japan had isolated itself from the outside world for the previous 220 years…….. In 1852, Japan was still wielding swords, bows, and arrows on small sailing ships whereas the Western powers were wielding guns and cannon on ocean-going steam-powered vessels.
In 1852 then-Capt. William Perry, under orders from President Millard Fillmore, forcibly kicked open Japan's front doors demanding a trade agreement with Japan.
In 1852 then-Capt. William Perry, under orders from President Millard Fillmore, forcibly kicked open Japan's front doors demanding a trade agreement with Japan.
…Forced to open itself to the world, the Japanese vowed to never let such humiliation happen to itself again. (OMG, the humiliation!! Free trade with the world) …..By the time the 1930's came around, Japan was not a nation to be trifled with. It had long-term trade agreements in place with many Western nations, including the US, and had the ability to enforce them. When Japan invaded China...following the Western power's strategy of colonization for national power, wealth and prestige by robbing other nations of their resources...the US protested and threatened to cut off vital supplies (like oil) to Japan.
At this point, the Japanese were offended. To their mind, they were simply playing the world domination game by the rules/methods established by the Western elite. And now, when they were in a position to truly take their place at the table, the Western elite were trying to tell them they couldn't. This was seen as a very grave insult.
) …..By the time the 1930's came around, Japan was not a nation to be trifled with. It had long-term trade agreements in place with many Western nations, including the US, and had the ability to enforce them. When Japan invaded China...following the Western power's strategy of colonization for national power, wealth and prestige by robbing other nations of their resources...the US protested and threatened to cut off vital supplies (like oil) to Japan. At this point, the Japanese were offended. To their mind, they were simply playing the world domination game by the rules/methods established by the Western elite. And now, when they were in a position to truly take their place at the table, the Western elite were trying to tell them they couldn't. This was seen as a very grave insult.
First, you compare worldwide expansion and colonialization efforts of the US, Britain and France beginning in the early 1800’s to expansion efforts by Japan in the 1930s, one hundred and thirty years later.
92 years before Pearl Harbor, the United States exercises some gunboat diplomacy with Japan which forced them out of their self-imposed stone age of 220 years with a treaty (not invasion). By your own account, this seemed to have a positive effect on Japan because by the 1930’s, they were “not a nation to be trifled with”. The trade agreements you mentioned along with impressive military strength all seem to be an overall improvement from Japan’s status as an isolationists country with swords and arrows in 1852.
So, this forced treaty in 1852 humiliates Japan (and apparently motivates them into the modern age, but we’ll conveniently ignore that). Apparently, national humiliation is a “get out of jail free” card in your world view. By the 1930’s, the British Empire is shrinking and they haven’t attempted to expand it using military force in a generation. French colonies are on the decline as well. The United States main territorial acquisitions of the 20th century were accomplished peacefully, not by invasion. I think it’s safe to say that by the 1930’s it really wasn’t in vogue any longer to simply invade another country because you wanted their stuff. Wasn't that sort of the whole problem with Hitler in Europe a few years later? The fact that you attempt to justify Japan’s invasion of China by claiming they were just following the example set by the major powers almost a century earlier is ludicrous. Should we have given Adolf a pass too?
Of course the U.S. (and other civilized nations of the 20th century) protested the invasion. According to you, Japan expected the “well you guys did it tooooooooo” (in the last century, but let’s not split hairs) argument to cover them and got mad when it didn’t. So, at that point, since they experienced a “grave insult” and they were concerned about possible consequences from their invasion, the only thing left to do is a sneak attack on Pearl Harbor.
The bottom line is this...
America brought Pearl Harbor and it's war with Japan upon itself...a massive case of "unintended consequences"...that all began with then-Captain William Perry forcibly kicking down the front doors of Japan in 1852. Anyone angry at the Japanese, then or now, should rightfully be directing their anger and hatred at their fellow Americans of previous generations....the same one's that committed genocide against the American Indians in the white man's theft of land and resources from those who were there long before them.
And no....this isn't political correctness....it is historical fact. And it also stands as an excellent example of Biblical wisdom, specifically that "the sins of the father are visited to the 7th generation". Perry and Fillmore didn't pay the price for their folly, but their descendants sure did.
America brought Pearl Harbor and it's war with Japan upon itself...a massive case of "unintended consequences"...that all began with then-Captain William Perry forcibly kicking down the front doors of Japan in 1852. Anyone angry at the Japanese, then or now, should rightfully be directing their anger and hatred at their fellow Americans of previous generations....the same one's that committed genocide against the American Indians in the white man's theft of land and resources from those who were there long before them.
And no....this isn't political correctness....it is historical fact. And it also stands as an excellent example of Biblical wisdom, specifically that "the sins of the father are visited to the 7th generation". Perry and Fillmore didn't pay the price for their folly, but their descendants sure did.
So, we brought it on ourselves because we forced a trade agreement on Japan almost a century before. Shoot, if we use that logic, I guess it would be just fine with you if Israel pulled some kind of sneak attack Germany tomorrow and used the holocaust to justify it.
France and England have pulled so much crap on each other over their history, I guess anything goes, right? Either one would be justified in a preemptive strike, especially if there was a grave insult involved too.
And to top it all off, let’s not forget the Native Americans!!!! My God, the Native Americans. No matter what good we have done in the world or will do in the future, we all suck because of what some of our ancestors did to the Native Americans.
Reality check – We, us, you, me, no one alive today did jack squat to the Native Americans. As far as Japan and your Biblical wisdom goes…… it may not be in the Bible but have you ever heard of “two wrongs don’t make a right”?
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