A day to be remembered or forgotten?
12-16-2015, 10:07 AM
#21
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Apr 2011
Posts: 1,830
Ahh, the emotional argument. Sorry, no, its not revisionist history. It's just history. Indeed, historical fact.
Fact: Perry and Fillmore did not take the time to deeply understand the Japanese and their culture/history and think through the potential long-term consequences of forcibly kicking in Japan's front door in demanding concessions and treaties.
My view is an objective one that removes all emotion from the assessment. I also stated that Japan's crimes were in no way excused by the history (this includes the Pearl Harbor attack, their treatment of prisoners, etc, etc, etc).
Furthermore, nothing in what I said disparages US veterans in any way. In fact, the only thing I said in that regard was that people who were or are still angry at the Japanese are not looking at the whole of the history (or are simply unwilling to do so). There is such a thing as "willful ignorance", which typically comes into play when one's emotions are seriously challenged by outside fact/reality. Instead of accepting the facts, they choose to remain willfully ignorant of them in order to justify feeling the way they want to feel.
Speaking of feelings (because this is an emotional topic for most people), people choose how they feel. Here is a simple demonstration.....I call you an ugly name. You then CHOOSE how you feel about that. You can choose to ignore it, laugh at it, overlook it, or choose to be mad and respond in kind. The point is...you choose how you feel. Always. About everything.
Many people's feelings about Pearl Harbor and WWII are greatly challenged by the historical facts. They want to call the Japanese the "bad guys" and call us Americans the "good guys". They want to see the world and reality in black and white, not in all the various shades of gray that represents true reality and historical fact.
Again, no one is excusing the Japanese from the choices they made. Likewise, no one should excuse America for the choices it made. It takes two nations to create a war. All I am doing is pointing out the historical fact about how the war between America and the Japanese came into being.
Stop being emotional about it and try some objectivity.
Fact: Perry and Fillmore did not take the time to deeply understand the Japanese and their culture/history and think through the potential long-term consequences of forcibly kicking in Japan's front door in demanding concessions and treaties.
My view is an objective one that removes all emotion from the assessment. I also stated that Japan's crimes were in no way excused by the history (this includes the Pearl Harbor attack, their treatment of prisoners, etc, etc, etc).
Furthermore, nothing in what I said disparages US veterans in any way. In fact, the only thing I said in that regard was that people who were or are still angry at the Japanese are not looking at the whole of the history (or are simply unwilling to do so). There is such a thing as "willful ignorance", which typically comes into play when one's emotions are seriously challenged by outside fact/reality. Instead of accepting the facts, they choose to remain willfully ignorant of them in order to justify feeling the way they want to feel.
Speaking of feelings (because this is an emotional topic for most people), people choose how they feel. Here is a simple demonstration.....I call you an ugly name. You then CHOOSE how you feel about that. You can choose to ignore it, laugh at it, overlook it, or choose to be mad and respond in kind. The point is...you choose how you feel. Always. About everything.
Many people's feelings about Pearl Harbor and WWII are greatly challenged by the historical facts. They want to call the Japanese the "bad guys" and call us Americans the "good guys". They want to see the world and reality in black and white, not in all the various shades of gray that represents true reality and historical fact.
Again, no one is excusing the Japanese from the choices they made. Likewise, no one should excuse America for the choices it made. It takes two nations to create a war. All I am doing is pointing out the historical fact about how the war between America and the Japanese came into being.
Stop being emotional about it and try some objectivity.
If anything begins to justify the countless sacrifices & bottomless grief this one country has paid on behalf of all others; it is VE/VJ Day WWII. Good guys U.S.? Hell yes. Saints? Not hardly. All managed incidentally by a flawed human who in my sentimentally weakened mind, laid claim to best ever…FDR.
12-16-2015, 07:20 PM
#22
Banned
Joined APC: Sep 2015
Posts: 85
"Hell yes the US is the good guys", eh?
Funny how the fire-breathing patriots here want everyone to "Remember Pearl Harbor".....but remember things like the Trail of Tears? Not so much. Here's a little reminder, speaking of WWII and history...
Why don't you people stop pretending America is the world's Savior? Here's a hint: it isn't. And, if anything, it's sacrifices during WWII can AT BEST be seen as a repayment for the genocide it perpetrated in the 18th and 19th centuries.
The point remains re: my comments about "unintended consequences" and kicking in Japan's front door by armed force in 1852. Speaking of "unintended consequences", do you think ISIS would even exist if Bush hadn't toppled Saddam Hussein after invading Iraq?
Nevermind. You blow-hards go right ahead with your "We're the best" BS. It's all you know how to do.
Funny how the fire-breathing patriots here want everyone to "Remember Pearl Harbor".....but remember things like the Trail of Tears? Not so much. Here's a little reminder, speaking of WWII and history...
Why don't you people stop pretending America is the world's Savior? Here's a hint: it isn't. And, if anything, it's sacrifices during WWII can AT BEST be seen as a repayment for the genocide it perpetrated in the 18th and 19th centuries.
The point remains re: my comments about "unintended consequences" and kicking in Japan's front door by armed force in 1852. Speaking of "unintended consequences", do you think ISIS would even exist if Bush hadn't toppled Saddam Hussein after invading Iraq?
Nevermind. You blow-hards go right ahead with your "We're the best" BS. It's all you know how to do.
Last edited by SqueeG; 12-16-2015 at 07:35 PM.
12-16-2015, 07:52 PM
#23
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Apr 2011
Posts: 1,830
One of the pairs of hands that you see outstretched to raise our National flag on the battle-scarred crest of Mount Suribachi so many years ago, are those of a Native American ... Ira Hayes ... a Marine not of the ethnic majority of our population.
Were Ira Hayes here today ... I would tell him that although my words on another occasion have given the impression that I believe some Marines ... because of their color ... are not as capable as other Marines ... that those were not the thoughts of my mind ... and that they are not the thoughts of my heart.
I would tell Ira Hayes that our Corps is what we are because we are of the people of America ... the people of the broad, strong, ethnic fabric that is our nation. And last, I would tell him that in the future, that fabric will broaden and strengthen in every category to make our Corps even stronger ... even of greater utility to our nation. That's a commitment of this commandant ... And that's a personal commitment of this Marine.
USMC Commandant; Gen. Carl Mundy
Were Ira Hayes here today ... I would tell him that although my words on another occasion have given the impression that I believe some Marines ... because of their color ... are not as capable as other Marines ... that those were not the thoughts of my mind ... and that they are not the thoughts of my heart.
I would tell Ira Hayes that our Corps is what we are because we are of the people of America ... the people of the broad, strong, ethnic fabric that is our nation. And last, I would tell him that in the future, that fabric will broaden and strengthen in every category to make our Corps even stronger ... even of greater utility to our nation. That's a commitment of this commandant ... And that's a personal commitment of this Marine.
USMC Commandant; Gen. Carl Mundy
12-16-2015, 08:23 PM
#24
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jul 2007
Position: 767 Captain
Posts: 3,989
Why don't you stop insisting that every wrong action from centuries past has any relevance on the value of current American efforts for good? No one is pretending the events you're so fixated on didn't happen. They simply have no relation to WW2 or current events. This agenda your pushing is pathetic and this historical scorecard you're attempting to tally up is ridiculous. Let it go.
12-16-2015, 10:40 PM
#25
With The Resistance
Joined APC: Jan 2006
Position: Burning the Agitprop of the Apparat
Posts: 6,191
"Hell yes the US is the good guys", eh?
Funny how the fire-breathing patriots here want everyone to "Remember Pearl Harbor".....but remember things like the Trail of Tears? Not so much. Here's a little reminder, speaking of WWII and history...
Why don't you people stop pretending America is the world's Savior? Here's a hint: it isn't. And, if anything, it's sacrifices during WWII can AT BEST be seen as a repayment for the genocide it perpetrated in the 18th and 19th centuries.
The point remains re: my comments about "unintended consequences" and kicking in Japan's front door by armed force in 1852. Speaking of "unintended consequences", do you think ISIS would even exist if Bush hadn't toppled Saddam Hussein after invading Iraq?
Nevermind. You blow-hards go right ahead with your "We're the best" BS. It's all you know how to do.
Funny how the fire-breathing patriots here want everyone to "Remember Pearl Harbor".....but remember things like the Trail of Tears? Not so much. Here's a little reminder, speaking of WWII and history...
Why don't you people stop pretending America is the world's Savior? Here's a hint: it isn't. And, if anything, it's sacrifices during WWII can AT BEST be seen as a repayment for the genocide it perpetrated in the 18th and 19th centuries.
The point remains re: my comments about "unintended consequences" and kicking in Japan's front door by armed force in 1852. Speaking of "unintended consequences", do you think ISIS would even exist if Bush hadn't toppled Saddam Hussein after invading Iraq?
Nevermind. You blow-hards go right ahead with your "We're the best" BS. It's all you know how to do.
Why don't you tell us which country is best son? Which country is the world's savior? Why aren't you living there?
Fact is almost every country has gone savage at one time or another, and they are all capable of it at any time. Savages needed killing back then just as they do today.
It is human nature and we are a very long way from changing that nature.
Indians were doing a pretty solid job of killing and stealing from each other for thousands of years prior to the arrival of the first Europeans. Those Europeans just stole it back fair and square with better tactics and weapons.
Of course those Europeans were pretty good at killing each other too for a few centuries and got to be pretty good at grabbing territory.
Now we all coexist peacefully due to superior firepower.
And they all lived happily ever after.
Not the same fairy tale you got in school is it?
The biggest genocide in the last hundred years wasn't the Nazis, but total up more than One hundred million under Stalin and Mao and a few others of their ilk.
There were never anywhere near 100 million Indians living in North America. Far more were killed by disease than by Europeans.
Last edited by jungle; 12-16-2015 at 11:17 PM.
12-17-2015, 06:37 AM
#27
With The Resistance
Joined APC: Jan 2006
Position: Burning the Agitprop of the Apparat
Posts: 6,191
wag, estimates vary wildly and someone went with an impossibly high number as a "fact" to prove those mean old euros were out for blood.
The facts are astounding, but don't fit the popular narrative.
Numerous other diseases were brought to North America, including measles, scarlet fever, typhoid, typhus, influenza, pertussis (whooping cough), tuberculosis, cholera, diphtheria, chickenpox and sexually transmitted diseases.[4] Each of these brought destruction through sweeping epidemics, involving illness and extensive deaths. Many Native American tribes experienced great depopulation, averaging 25–50 percent of the tribes members lost to disease. Additionally, smaller tribes neared extinction after facing severely a destructive spread of disease.[4] The significant toll that this took is expounded upon in the article Population history of indigenous peoples of the Americas. A specific example was Cortes' invasion of Mexico. Before his arrival, the Mexican population is estimated to have been around 25 to 30 million. Fifty years later, the Mexican population was reduced to 3 million, mainly by infectious disease. This shows the main effect of the arrival of Europeans in the new world. With no natural immunity against these pathogens, Native Americans died in huge numbers. The eminent Yale historian David Brion Davis describes this as "the greatest genocide in the history of man. Yet it's increasingly clear that most of the carnage had nothing to do with European barbarism. The worst of the suffering was caused not by swords or guns but by germs”.[5]
The facts are astounding, but don't fit the popular narrative.
Numerous other diseases were brought to North America, including measles, scarlet fever, typhoid, typhus, influenza, pertussis (whooping cough), tuberculosis, cholera, diphtheria, chickenpox and sexually transmitted diseases.[4] Each of these brought destruction through sweeping epidemics, involving illness and extensive deaths. Many Native American tribes experienced great depopulation, averaging 25–50 percent of the tribes members lost to disease. Additionally, smaller tribes neared extinction after facing severely a destructive spread of disease.[4] The significant toll that this took is expounded upon in the article Population history of indigenous peoples of the Americas. A specific example was Cortes' invasion of Mexico. Before his arrival, the Mexican population is estimated to have been around 25 to 30 million. Fifty years later, the Mexican population was reduced to 3 million, mainly by infectious disease. This shows the main effect of the arrival of Europeans in the new world. With no natural immunity against these pathogens, Native Americans died in huge numbers. The eminent Yale historian David Brion Davis describes this as "the greatest genocide in the history of man. Yet it's increasingly clear that most of the carnage had nothing to do with European barbarism. The worst of the suffering was caused not by swords or guns but by germs”.[5]
12-17-2015, 06:48 AM
#28
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Aug 2007
Posts: 1,023
Isn't it possible to recognize the greatness of the Amercian Idea while at the same time acknowledging our failures as a society to live up to our ideals? Our failures don't make our ideals any less great, just as the greatness of our ideals don't make our failures any less tragic. Tyranny from within is just as perilous as tyranny from without.
At the risk of sounding irreverent, I think the Amazon series "The Man in the High Castle" does an excellent job treating these ideas. It helps to show just how important the Allied victory of WW2 was and how much was at stake in the fight, while at the same time acknowledging the evils in our history (drawing a parallel between the plight of the Native Americans under colonialism and the Jews under National Socialism in particular).
At the risk of sounding irreverent, I think the Amazon series "The Man in the High Castle" does an excellent job treating these ideas. It helps to show just how important the Allied victory of WW2 was and how much was at stake in the fight, while at the same time acknowledging the evils in our history (drawing a parallel between the plight of the Native Americans under colonialism and the Jews under National Socialism in particular).
12-18-2015, 12:10 AM
#29
With The Resistance
Joined APC: Jan 2006
Position: Burning the Agitprop of the Apparat
Posts: 6,191
Isn't it possible to recognize the greatness of the Amercian Idea while at the same time acknowledging our failures as a society to live up to our ideals? Our failures don't make our ideals any less great, just as the greatness of our ideals don't make our failures any less tragic. Tyranny from within is just as perilous as tyranny from without.
At the risk of sounding irreverent, I think the Amazon series "The Man in the High Castle" does an excellent job treating these ideas. It helps to show just how important the Allied victory of WW2 was and how much was at stake in the fight, while at the same time acknowledging the evils in our history (drawing a parallel between the plight of the Native Americans under colonialism and the Jews under National Socialism in particular).
At the risk of sounding irreverent, I think the Amazon series "The Man in the High Castle" does an excellent job treating these ideas. It helps to show just how important the Allied victory of WW2 was and how much was at stake in the fight, while at the same time acknowledging the evils in our history (drawing a parallel between the plight of the Native Americans under colonialism and the Jews under National Socialism in particular).
All of the evils you cite are a direct result of the denial of individual freedom.
The real mistake is to pretend the State has any greater power than an individual, or any greater authority. In any matter.
It matters not whether your goal is fascism, socialism, communism or any other means of control; it all revolves around restrictions on individual liberty and the bottom line is that power only comes from the barrel of a gun.
History is full of examples of various ideologies enforced by rifle fire. Not logic, not reason-only brute force.
It would be nice if we could evolve beyond force, but that appears unlikely for the foreseeable future.
Last edited by jungle; 12-18-2015 at 12:24 AM.
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